I like the idea of a one ace move that just resets everyone’s hand and doesn’t do any meaningful damage, but I wonder if that would be too easy to get often and just prevent the opponent from ever building a hand. Not to mention that it couldn’t be very fast since Zane shouldn’t have reliable access to a reversal… Having it cost four aces probably is too many, but I’m worried that one would be too few.
It should definitely affect Zane, or it wouldn’t be Maximum Anarchy! 
My first thought would be to put it at 4.0 speed, so he can’t use it as anti-cross up defense against 3-attacks.
A fair point very well made. I’d be the first to attest to my lack of affinity with rushdown in this game, so I can only comment on what I find most obnoxious when I play against him.
On that note I’d be up for arranging some time to sit and play a bunch for games against Zane without Anarchy (doesn’t even need rulesless mode) to see what the balance actually feels like for Jaina/Arg/Grave/Rook. My suspicion is that @cpat’s numbers are still too good for Zane without Anarchy but I could be wrong. @attilian you’re on my timezone right? That could make for some easy scheduling 
I really like the sound of this, or @cpat’s single A C&D. Both of those are the first time I’ve heard MA suggestions that aim to add a bunch of flavour to the game, rather than just tweaking speed/damage numbers. I have a suggestion though, for the multi-ace super version, instead of triggering C&D how about the following:
Maximum Anarchy
When this attack hits, both you and the opponent reshuffle your discard piles back into your decks. Then, you both discard and redraw your hands. You draw 2 additional cards.
This is an attempt to mimic codex MA where its acts as a complete board reset, but also aims to retain some of the feel of C&D (especially the “lol I just got rid of all your good stuff” part). Discarding both hands after the reshuffle is likely to be better for Zane given that he’s just played AAAA but you’d need to be somewhat careful about what you ditch. I could also see the 2 additional cards for Zane dropped depending how the ability playtests. It might be that keeping Zane low hand is better given that he’s likely just ruined his opponents day.
Lol Jonny you *cough* technically correct *cough*goon
Good idea. That would be fun. I won’t be able to play this week coming, but I’ll contact you after that.
I haven’t been participating in this thread until now, because I think that Yomi is very well balanced as it is. It’s not perfect of course, but it’s much better than most fighting games. And it’s also never going to get an official third edition, so the topic is pretty much moot.
If we did get a third edition though, the changes I would want are
Shenanigans interacts terribly with facedowns and offloads too much of Zane’s resource management on the RNG, when Yomi is otherwise a game where you can mitigate variance issues to a large extent with correct strategy and valuation. Long Range is a more extreme form of advantage time, with more lopsided RPS payoffs, than any other non-checkmate gamestate. It’s a nightmare for new players, it’s mechanically unprecedented and it makes his match-ups probably the most polarised in the game. He’s not overpowered or anything like that, quite the contrary, but he’s weird and feelbad and I want to bring him more in line with the rest of the cast.
As a bonus, changing these characters lets us nerf Troq without worrying about breaking his worst match-ups.
Troq doesn’t need a big nerf IMO, just something to make him a little less of an omni-character.
Less HP, slow down his Queens, something along those lines. The thing that makes him so good right now isn’t that he has anything in particular that’s outstanding (you could knock some damage off Beast Unleashed if you think that’s the right place to nerf him, but I don’t consider it an issue myself) but that all his options are good and the closest thing he has to weaknesses are his low dodge count and losing blocks to Giant Growth. I don’t know what nerf would work best but just make him a little bit worse and I think he’s in a good place.
Zane is a lot harder to discuss because Shenanigans is an ability I would want to change regardless of whether it was actually good or not -I think it’s some of the worst design in Yomi. (Which is praise by faint condemnation, but that’s neither here nor there.) And if you start by replacing Shenanigans with a different innate you basically have to rewrite most of Zane’s deck.
The “draw 10 discard 3” suggestion for her helps her early game without doing anything for her late game, but it feels inelegant to me.
What does she and Jaina actually need?
Interesting to hear your thoughts @ArthurWynne.
I would agree with you that the game is generally well balanced, for example when I play as Grave I feel that I have a very decent change to win any matchup. However, like you, my experience has taught me that there are a small number of matchups (often involving Zane, Rook or Geiger imo) that could do with tweaking to move them from a pretty feelbad place to somewhere more reasonable.
Even if there is never a v3 of Yomi, I’d still want to figure out what balance changes would make the game better, as tweaking and analysing games is one of my favourite things to do. It’s a sign of affection, rather than a sign of something wrong with the game itself. I’ve modded a number of board games with house rules or fan rules because it adds to the enjoyment of those games. I’m totally up for doing the same for Yomi. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I really love thinking about it.
I absolutely agree Troq just needs some small nerfs to bring him in line with the rest of the cast (small speed penalty to both J and AA imo) but I disagree pretty strongly about BBB and Zane needing a whole redesign, I think BBB can be problematic for some characters (poor sad boulder) but long range is imo a really interesting twist to the usual gameplay rather than a blight on the game. When I’m playing rook vs BBB though I’m not sure I’d say the same 
Zane is…Zane… but despite my frustration with him, I don’t think of shenanigans in quite as negative a light as you. I could forsee a less damage per card character with a similar ability not being an issue at all. For me it’s his resulting damage efficiency that’s irksome. Having that be so efficient *and* having a ridiculously safe big super *and* having 85HP *and* one of the best reversals in the game seems so far ahead of everyone else that I often scratch my head wondering how it shipped as is (probably the numbers, which aren’t as quite as bad as it feels when playing). So I’m for mild-moderate Zane nerfs to try and find something that means he doesn’t crush the majority of the cast straight away but also doesn’t lose extra horribly to our minorly nerfed Troq.
I don’t know what to suggest for Persephone as I don’t tend to play as her, or against her that much. I’m not sure she’s who I would consider the weakest character, as her vortex is real nasty and her hand denial is pretty brutal. I definitely feel like caution with making her better is quite important. Because of her nature, Perse as the strongest character could be really quite feelbadf for the game.
I actually have a barrel-load of suggestions for Jaina! I’ve played with her pretty extensively and feel like I have a firm grip on her strengths and shortcomings. Will post them up here at some point soon for you (and others) to read through.
This is an important point. Too often, people interpret balance wishlists as a condemnation of the current game when that is not the case. Especially for new players, it’s important to remember that pretty much no one who has a deep understanding of Yomi believes the game is poorly balanced, especially when compared to games like it. We might come off more critical than we mean to sometimes though.
I’ve found myself thinking about balance changes lately and some questions came to me.
Why do BBB’s normals trigger range when blocked, instead of when they deal block damage? The latter version would cause Rook’s special blocks to prevent range. I’m assuming there is a negative side effect that I’m missing.
Has making Lum’s Poker Flourish uncounterable like Oni’s Final Authority ever been considered? Lum loses to every character with a counter except Setsuki (roughly even), and it seems like this would make the Arg matchup much better.
I started Yomi as a Rook main and love the theoretical playstyle of the character: building a big hand with blocks & card efficient counterthrows so you can threaten Rock Armor. However, I think long time Rook players can attest that Rock Armor is highly underwhelming, for a number of reasons. It requires a lot of (suit specific) cards, there are so many exceptions where it can’t be used, and Rook’s low combo damage makes it a mediocre trade even if it does work. My conclusion after playing Rook for a long time was that powering up for AA is a much more worthwhile investment of cards. Would making Rock Armor work against Ace attacks really be too good? Or perhaps increasing Q damage so the trade is more favorable?
How bad is Gloria-Arg, and if it’s worse than 6-4 what ideas might alleviate that without nerfing Gloria or buffing Arg too much? What if active Bubble Shield made Hex of Murkwood prevent healing?
What kind of Jaina and Ven buffs/changes do players of those characters think would help? Maybe they’d be in a good place as is after top tier nerfs?
I don’t know about too good, I just think it’s not a relevant change. Rook’s bad MUs don’t hinge on his Rock Armor being better. Better RA still means he gets bodied by BBB. RA isn’t relevant to his Geiger MU. RA beating Aces aren’t going to get him a win against Grave if he’s not already winning that match. RA isn’t what wins or loses him the game against Arg. I think RA beating Aces just makes his winning MUs that much more brutal, which doesn’t strike me as a good choice.
I think Rook is probably overall fine, if only BBB and Arg weren’t such godawful MUs. His MU vs Geiger is pretty bad, but he at least gets to try and win it in the early and mid-game, so I honestly don’t think it needs fixing, really.
Thanks for you reply!
I don’t mean to disparage the interest in tweaking and balancing Yomi - there are many, many ways to enjoy games, and analysis is absolutely one of them. The reason I say that unofficial tweaks are moot is that if you change the rules, you lock yourself out of playing with the wider Yomi community - not a problem when you’re talking about tweaking a cooperative game like an RPG that only has to please your particular gaming group, but very much one when you’re dealing with a competitive game that’s often played with strangers or in tournaments. It’s like chess variants - they can absolutely be a fun diversion and they can even be improvements on the official rules of chess, but none of them is realistically going to build a community of players comparable to the parent game.
As we’ve both agreed, Yomi is pretty well balanced, so while some characters have to be the weakest, that doesn’t mean they’re bad, or even necessarily that they’re too weak. Someone always has to be the weakest, after all. The reason I say Persephone is one of the bottom two is that she requires a lot of combat wins to get her vortex going (because she deals relatively little damage), and that combined with her low HP gives her very low margin for error. That doesn’t preclude her from being one of the characters I most enjoy playing, or having, in my opinion, a very high skill ceiling on her play.
I 100% agree - I would go so far as to say that as long as there has to be a bottom tier in the game, it’s probably good for the game that she’s in that tier - with of course the caveat that the gap between tiers should be reduced as much as possible.
That’s excellent! I’m a Jaina player myself but I’m honestly pretty mediocre with her so I’d be very interested in reading your thoughts.
Lum’s ability being counterable isn’t really a problem. The problem is that Arg’s counter is too unilaterally good. The same problem Grave’s counter had in v1 before they fixed it. Maybe if Arg was limited to one counter per turn or something.
People underestimate Rock Armor. It’s a fine move and maybe doesn’t need the suit restriction but otherwise works well. If Rook has a clear issue it’s that his special blocks need to work better. As you said, prevent range maybe, work against jokers, perhaps not discard if not triggered. Those 8 cards keep him alive and they’re too fragile.
I don’t think Arg needs any buffs (maybe even a small nerf to his counter) and I doubt Gloria needs any nerfs. I think this is a bad matchup for Arg but it’s perfectly winnable and I think it’s just one that we have to settle on for the good of Yomi.
Ven doesn’t want any buffs, except maybe being able to play Acro on post-Acro turns (it’s a steep cost, and he can only do it 4 times, does it really need to be restricted?). Otherwise he is versatile, high damage, and good payoff on dodge from turn 1. So he’s a little slow. He gets by.
Really? You don’t think even some of the minor buffs like making 2s Starters or linkers?
Since when Ven has a 2 he is almost always going to open with it anyway, and it will get minimal use off throw or K starter I’m not sure how that would help.
The idea being to allow him to combo into his 5s and 6s a little easier, since in some matchups they don’t get a lot of use, or require his Queen to be useful.
Yeah but who is gonna waste a 2 for that unless it’s lethal?
EDIT: I just checked my card stats and I have played 5 and 6 attacks more often as combat reveals and combo follow ups than 3, multiple times more often than Q as combat reveals, and 2/3 the amount of times as Qs for combo follow ups.
Honestly the only “buff” I can think of for Arg that helps vs Gloria and doesn’t make him too strong would be to give K another side that is like 6 damage and knocks down at some slow speed. (11.0?) If it was any faster that’d make him a bit too strong vs Rook. He’s the only character I can think of without an answer to KD Gloria 7 Throw Spam during Sphere turns. (Other characters like Quince, DeGrey, Gloria have an Attack that knocks down.)
I was originally thinking that Q at 2.0 would be fine, but thinking about it more it’d just help his strong matchups like (Grave, Menelker) get stronger.
Hmm… It would technically help, but not really by much in my estimation. The knockdown side can’t be a Linker or an Ender or else Arg gets another nasty tool against Rook, as well as a super useful combo card for all his other MUs. So it would have to be like Persephone’s J: super slow and Can’t Combo.
But honestly, as someone who has thought about this MU quite a bit, I don’t really think this would be that helpful. Yeah, it sucks that Gloria can guarantee she keeps up Healing Sphere, but that’s really a minor nitpick in the MU dynamic. Her advantage over Arg comes from two major points:
Any substantial improvement to the MU would have to address one of these two things or else it feels like putting a band aid on a broken arm. Sure, it would obviously be helpful to have an attack that knocks down, but I’m not sure the marginal benefit is worth it.
I’m much more in favor of the idea that Bubble Shield could prevent healing (because that addresses problem #1) but I don’t know how it would affect the Gwen, DeGrey, and Lum MUs.
Arg having an attack KD would allow him to wreck Rook even more. Unless it was a Can’t combo move that was also speed 11.0. At that point I’m not sure you ever use it.
I find this surprising. I’ve found that the times Rook performs best vs Arg is when he plays hard for RA. Arg is among the weakest in game to RA. Doesn’t have a single ace attack and Rook can often do a 2:1 damage exchange or better on RA turns.
Lum and Gwen are effectively unchanged, since Lum can always choose to draw bottom card of deck instead of healing and Gwen should be dodging instead of 10*-blocking when Bubble Shield is up. DeGrey sometimes wants to use TR during Bubble Shield but that’s minor and the matchup is evenish anyway. I’m really liking this idea.
I’m liking it too, but how would it work in 2v2? Should it prevent the benched player from healing or not?
Have fun RAing into a bubble shield. XD
Yeah when I posted that idea I intended to state Can’t Combo. it’d only be “useful” in the Gloria matchup and as a nifty Throw duff for Oki that could be good useful in matches where people use lots of block/throws. If it is useful it opens up more footsies options. Chip would also need to be low so it isn’t too strong as antithrow/block? It’d also have its niche uses as a Dodge Followup alternative to Throw.
I think more access to Knockdown would help vs Gloria, but its not going to make the matchup Even by any means unless Arg’s kit is significantly altered. I think the change to Bubble Shield not healing might make the matchup 6-4. It’d be another way to disable spheres. Combined with an Attack that knocks down maybe 5.5/5.75-4.5/4.25?