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XCAFS20 Initial Ruleset definition discussion!

Other advantages of $1 Haunt over $1 Deteriorate are that it can be played proactively on T1 and that it can affect Heroes, potentially discouraging aggressive behavior from them. And, of course, that you don’t need a hero in play to utilize it.

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So what happens if I have two Boulders in play and lose Mythmaking to a spell like Assimilate?

One would be discarded, active player’s choice.

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I think you have to discard whichever one came into play later. The rules only state what normally happens when a second one would come under your control, so technically it is ambiguous.

Well, according to a strict interpretation of the rules, the new ability would never function because it would always be contradicted by the Legendary rule and skipped over by “do as much as you can”. So, we’re already breaking the rules by introducing such a mechanic at all. This is also one of those cases where the same concept is described in semantically different ways at different parts of the rule book, but taken together, it’s clear that the “second copy” refers to the copy that is attempting to enter play. I suppose we could say that players have to keep track of which unit arrived later, for as long as both units are in play, but not only would this create an unprecedented new bookkeeping requirement for players, but also creates a further ambiguity in the case where there are more than 2 copies of a legendary unit under a player’s control. This could actually matter if, for example, one is patrolling as Technician, and another has an attached spell like Vortoss Emblem and the player’s draw pile is empty. And then there’s the issue of how to determine which is the “second” copy if you have a Mirror Illusion, play Macciatus, the Whisperer, and then make the Mirror a copy of Macciatus with Quince’s maxband. Rather than deal with these headaches, it seems much more practical to just say that the game doesn’t track order of entry and therefore which unit survives is a choice to be made by the active player.

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Also i think there was a sharpo-agreed-upon set of “state-based rules” that always apply such as “is anything dead right now? Then…” which included discarding either second copy of a legendary. Will look for the thread but if ive remembered it correctly this would support nekoatl

Id say this implies that order only matters when the second one is currently trying to arrive

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Note that the changes are based on the PBF environment, which is more efficient/faster than in-person or other synchronous play.
Rich Earth at 3 is unplayable when most games are decided at 8 workers - spending 2 extra gold and a card on turn 1 to get 2-3 gold back later is actively hurting you.

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What is PBF environment?

Play-by-Forum

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I don’t disagree with you, but I stand by my assertion that it’s too good at 2. One gold makes a world of difference; if we’re going to balance it, we’re going to have to seek alternative methods than just cost adjustment.
See my thought provoker above for ideas.

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@FrozenStorm @EricF Does Drill Sergeant still target with his changed ability?

It would be rather strange if it did, since the player doesn’t select a unit for the +1/+1 rune to be moved to.

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Pretty happy to see such a tournament being run. Also happy with suggested changes to be tested. Since I agree with 90% of them :stuck_out_tongue:

I finally got around to post Blue vs. Black nerf test session report from February, so a bit of an opinion on changes to test.

Black Starter:

I suggest to also nerf Graveyard to break when it holds 3 units instead of 4.
Curbing Haunt to 1g sounds interesting, as this nerf also hits Graveyard and Sacrifice effects as collateral.

Demonology:

Dark Pact to deal 1 damage to Vandy instead of 2

Nerf Vandy’s midband to levels 4-5; Maxband to 6. Still not sure if cutting Resist is correct, but it’s such a red flag for everyone else, so try it, whatever.

Metamorphosis: Remove Readiness instead of Invisibility. I think Metamorph is too much of a different/weak card without Invis. The point of it is to go all-in on heroes; Without Invisibility it loses this design intention. Testing absence of Invisilibity could be interesting from the point of view “How much of a nerf is too much”, but I’m afraid it would all but kill the card from design space standpoint. If you believe cutting Readiness alone is not good enough, maybe cut one of +1/+1 tokens as well. But keep Invis.

Disease:

Orpal Midband to be 4-6, Maxband at 7.

Blue Starter:

I think letting Building Inspector straight up discount controller’s buildings 1/turn is way more elegant.

Law:
Don’t like suggested Jurisdiction change. Clunky. Barely changes anything at all. I like tucking Lawful Search effect on this card instead. Very elegant, and powerful. Full text would be “Look at opponents hand or discard pile. Then play any non-ultimate spell from your codex, paying it’s cost and discarding it.”

Peace:
Drill Sergeant NO NO NO. You lose Hallucination / Dreamscape combo with this change. Just limit rune moving ability to 2/turn, same as Blooming Ancient.

Truth:
I’d suggest discounting Quince’s midband ability to 1g or — if you are feeling bold — making Mirrors 0/2s.

I like everything else in the list except for a few minor odds and ends here and there, like KotC Forecast at 2 is too much with Time Spiral and Tinkerer changes, Regular Sized Rhino is now very sad when compared to Oversized one, don’t understand +1 HP on Predator, agree with Bomber on 2g Rich Earth, etc…

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Metamorph granting Invisibility leads to non-interactive games where the Vandy player summons a hero, casts metamorph, and wins 2 turns later with literally nothing the opponent could do in the meantime to interact with it (since almost no specs have detectors, and you can’t use a fresh tower to attack or target an Invisible thing).

The dreamscape thing a) never comes up, since just having a DS in play wins most games, and copying it with Quince is almost as good without the tech card risk. And b) isn’t a fun interaction anyway

If nothing else, this:

is wrong.

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agreed, is one of blue killer combo.

What game are y’all playin? I’ve basically never had a scenario where Dreamscape was warranted. Hallucination is basically always better for one less gold. The only time Dreamscape would be better is your opponent has massive flood, and you have DS + Macciatus already out on board. I’ve never seen that happen.

I’d much rather have Dreamscape changed to some other function than worry about how DS changes interact with it

I feel like I’ve used Drill Sergeant / Dreamscape against you effectively before, Frozen, and if not you, then definitely against someone, and on more than one occasion. Dreamscape is more efficient across multiple turns, or against large numbers of units in a single turn, but Hallucination is more efficient against 2 units if you don’t expect Quince to survive, if your opponent is running ongoing removal, or if you’re expecting to win the game by removing those 2 units, or if you’re concerned about targeted retalliation.

You don’t actually need Macciatus to make Dreamscape viable, or even Mind-Parry Monk (which, btw, is an excellent choice of unit to copy with Mirror Illusions), in fact just putting a pair of Spectral Flagbearers in your Scavenger and Technician slots is enough protection in many cases, and if you’re also using Flagstone Garrison to quickly dump Overeager Cadet, Spectral Flagbearer, and Spectral Hound, you can replay them every turn if they get killed, and rack up +1/+1 runes on Drill Sergeant at the same time.

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You may have used it, but would you have lost if it was some other card from your Codex?

I will note that the combo makes it easier and faster to win, which is relevant in F2F play when you don’t have time to math out your Garrison/DS/reshuffle turns.

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That’s not a reasonable question, by which I mean, to accurately answer it would be more trouble than it’s worth, if indeed it can be accurately answered at all. What I can easily say is that the Drill Sergeant sniper strategy would often be less appealing if Dreamscape didn’t exist, and that I have no intention of running Truth, and especially not Peace with Truth, under the current change list.