The Bureau of Balance (collating and testing fan-made changes)

Quince

Brief Discussion

Quince’s unique vortexing playstyle sees him retain strong character loyalists despite his very bad matchups against :zane::geiger:.

While he’s known to also have a tough match against :valerie:, his matches against most other characters are rarely discussed in the context of balance changes, which may imply that they’re well balanced, or perhaps insufficiently explored.


Changes Under Consideration

There haven’t been many suggestions for Quince in the various V3 discussions, likely due to the cohesive nature of his kit. However the suggestions made this far are targeted at his worst matchups.

Quince’ slow speeds and reliance on dodges means he is particularly weak to being knocked down. This is extra bad for him if the opponent has mix-up normals that beat his AA, which is why :zane::valerie: are so tough. While :geiger: doesn’t has such an option, he can threaten Fast Time Spiral when Quince is KD to beat everything except AA or Gold Burst. With TD active this can checkmate Quince for guaranteed lethal damage.

The suggestion to make his AA 1.0 speed was originally well received as it gives him a much needed answer to 1.0 speed mix-up normals. However @migohunter has expressed concern that 1.0 speed would allow it to trade with too many things, with each trade giving Quince a chance to use Positive Spin. There is a worry that this would warp his gameplay towards AA spam. It also doesn’t aid him against :geiger:

AA Consent of the Governed
1.2 speed —> 1.0 speed

An alternative suggestion was to add a purely defensive option for KD turns, in the form of a special block on his 4. This has the added advantage that it provides a way to beat Time Spirals when KD by avoiding block damage. The idea was to preserve his mechanical flavour where he lacks a reversal. This block damage component is less controversial than giving Quince a tool that beats mix-up normals. So far there have been two formulations. The first beats all mix-up normals and ignores block damage but always gets discarded, never draws a card and costs a card to trigger. The second is speed gated to only beat very fast mix-up normals but is able to operate similarly to proposed V3 Special Blocks for :rook::gwen:

4* Filibuster [During Combat]
You may discard a card to make this block immune to mixup normals and block damage. This doesn’t return to hand or draw from blocking.

4* Filibuster [During Combat]
Discard this block to make it immune to block damage and beat mix-up normals faster than 3.0 speed.

4 Likes

Onimaru

Brief Discussion

Onimaru is generally regarded as a strong character and arguably goes even or better against every member of the 20XX triangle :troq::zane::geiger:. Unfortunately, he has very bad matchups against :degrey: and :argagarg: that hold him back a lot in competitive play.


Consensus Changes

Suggestions for Onimaru have focused on improving his throws, since his most challenging matchups have powerful dodges or blocks that are immune to his Guard Crush normal attacks. Changing Onimaru’s 6-attack to a named throw helps him deal with DeGrey’s Ace dodge and Arg’s Ace block. This also gives him another throw that beats Quince’s King, helping Onimaru in another challenging matchup. Note the name is currently just a placeholder.

6-attack —> 6-throw Spinal Toss
8.6 speed, 8+4+4 damage (+2 any), does not knockdown

2 Likes

Bal-Bas-Beta

Brief Discussion

BBB (affectionately designated Beelzebot by :rook: mains) has probably the most polarised match-up distribution in the cast. Long Range completely changes the option space of the game, notably making non-ranged throws illegal (oh dear grapplers) and his dodges completely safe unless he’s in a mirror match.

Agreeable changes to BBB have mostly been focussed around Junkshot, his long range-only Q as it’s a big part of what makes his kit so oppressive against the grapplers once he pushes them away.


Consensus Changes

Slowing Junkshot to 3.0 speed gives the grapplers a bunch more options to use against an otherwise very scary kit. This also lets us nerf :troq: without skewing his tense but generally considered even MU against the lord of hell :bbb: (You can thank us later :rook::midori:). Tweaking range to trigger on block damage rather than his normals being blocked also buffs :rook: in neutral.

Long Range
Whenever your [range-giving] moves deal block damage or win combat, set combat to ranged next turn.

Q Junkshot
2.2 speed —> 3.0 speed

1 Like

Troq

Brief Discussion

Troq is probably the best character in the game. It’s not that any one his options are overwhelmingly strong on their own (though Beast Unleashed is pretty goddamn powerful), its more that all of his options are good nearly all of the time.

The suggested changes focus on nerfing his J, which gives Troq a third face card that completely ruin’s Zane’s day, and his AA which is actually so good at 1.0 speed that it’s literally been dubbed Good Move.


Consensus Changes

Troq doesn’t really need his Troq Armor ability as the speed of fast J already undercuts nearly every normal attack in the game. Since (reworked) :bbb: has a 3.0 speed Junkshot additionally slowing fast J to 2.4 speed seems completely reasonable.

Slowing AA to 1.2 speed and limiting War Stomp to once per turn are also both oft-mentioned changes to make his options just a little worse.

J Bull Rush
2.2 speed —> 2.4 speed

J* Troq Armor
Deleted

AA Eagle Totem
1.0 speed —> 1.2 speed

10* War Stomp [Draw Phase]
If neither player is knocked down, knock the opponent down, draw a card, and the opponent discards a card.

2 Likes

Menelker

(Reserved for later use)

Persephone

Brief Discussion

Persephone sees very little play in competitive Yomi outside of a few very skilled character loyalists. Her deck offers a control style that generally takes a while to get going, but once she has the opponent in her vortex she can threaten to set up a very scary hard lock where she is guaranteed to win.

Most suggested changes are focused on improving either her early game, general consistency, or her longevity so that she can more reliably reach her strong end game. This is a very difficult balance to strike without making her broken, so these changes will likely remain conservative.


Consensus Changes

Normally +1 damage to a certain class of card is not a significant enough change to really merit consideration, however :persephone: needs to win a lot of combats, often with throws to manage to kill the opponent. It’s believed that this would likely reduce her need to win by approximately one combat per game, without tinkering with her delicately balanced kit. It also has the nice result of making her the only female character with 8 damage normal throws.

Normal Throw Damage
7 damage —> 8 damage

K-throw Wild Ride
9 damage —> 10 damage

3 Likes

Gloria

Brief Discussion

Gloria is another character with a unique playstyle which draws dedicated character loyalists. She’s considered fairly challenging to pilot well, and her kit is considered very cohesive. This latter fact makes targeted balance changes challenging to implement.

Gloria has a very strong match-up vs :argagarg:, but with her weakness to burst damage, she suffers badly against :zane::midori:. With some reasonable Zane nerfs planned, it’s actually the latter of these opponents that her changes have been aimed at.


Consensus Changes

Midori has a specific weakness to throw enders, so making Gloria’s Q throw into one gives her the ability to attack into dK or FDB and still end dragon form. dQ is also a severe problem for her, and the only agreeable solution seemed to be speeding up Sun and Moon to undercut it.

Q Moonbar Cage
Can’t Combo —> 3CP Ender

AAA Sun and Moon
0.6 speed —> 0.4 speed

2 Likes

Gwen

(Reserved for later use)

Vendetta

(Reserved for later use)

Zane

Brief Discussion

If Zane isn’t the best character in the game, then he’s definitely the most meta-defining. He kerbstomps a huge number of the cast with explosive (if sometimes erratic) combo damage off of 1.0 speed attacks and dominant throws (outside grapplers/supers), a reversal that beats every other reversal, and probably the most hated super in Yomi.

Appropriately enough, Zane also seems to be nearly the divisive character when it comes to discussing balance changes. At present there are two main schools of thought, the first is that the only thing wrong with Zane is Maximum Anarchy (which should be removed and/or replaced with something less game warping), the second is that moderate nerfs to all parts of his gameplan are required, with Anarchy getting at minimum a speed nerf to 0.3.


Consensus Changes

The only change that has been met with long term consistent agreement is that Shenanigans should trigger before the opponent plays a facedown. As things stand, sometimes Zane getting bad nans is actually worse for his opponent.

The change listed here for Crash Bomb is an attempt to make it slightly less good by letting knockdowns beat it. This was suggested recently, but has received no negative feedback thus far. It helps :geiger::quince::bbb::persephone::gloria: who all currently struggle vs Zane, so it would seem to be a well targeted good suggestion.

Shenanigans
Immediately after you win combat, if you could play a combo card, reveal two cards from the top of your deck and use up to one of them in your combo. Discard the unused card(s).

K* Crash Bomb [During Combat]
This attack can’t be interrupted except by attacks that knock down. (If it’s hit by a faster non-knockdown attack, the opponent can’t combo. This hits afterwards and wins combat.)
If this is blocked, you take 5 damage and are knocked down.


Changes Under Consideration

Meaty Attacks
While the opponent is knocked down, your normal attacks are speed 1.0 and do not draw a card if they are blocked or win combat.

J Anarch Crusher
9(4) damage, 1CP Ender —> 11(4) damage, 2CP Ender

4* Creator and Destroyer
Deleted

AAAA Maximum Anarchy —> AA Maximum Anarchy
0.0 speed, 50(5) damage —> 1.0 speed, 15(2) damage

A* Maximum Anarchy [During Combat]
If you won combat and Maximum Anarchy dealt damage, all players remake their hands (Each player reveals their hand, shuffles it, puts it on the bottom of their deck, then draws that many cards).

AA Slipstream Phase
1.2 speed —> 1.3 speed

5 Likes

You know me, lord of memes.

5 Likes

I’ve just discovered there is a site wide edit limit so I can’t make any more progress today :tired_face:

I’ll add more of the discussed changes from the wishlist to this thread when I’m allowed to lol. Others can also give it a go if they feel up to it, that is the power of wiki posts after all.

2 Likes

I’ve changed the formatting slightly so that speed, damage or CP/type changes are recorded with original —> new for ease of reference.

I’ve also tried to underline ability text that has been changed. This is hard where text has been simply removed or major rework has happened. Where possible I’ve tried to indicate where changes to use occurred.

1 Like

If something gets removed, you can strike it out.

[s]If something gets removed, you can strike it out.[/s]

2 Likes

Yeah, I was going to go back and do that when I had a moment

1 Like

I think Setsuki can also be considered stable?

3 Likes

I’ve edited all the cases I saw where something had been deleted and showed that change with struck-out text. Also changed some wording on characters where I was already making changes to bring it more in line with official wording.

Finally, I tried adjusting the formatting of Zane’s post in an attempt to improve readability, mainly by un-bolding the card rank next to each move or ability’s name and re-positioning the ability timing tags to be next to the ability names. I can go ahead and apply that to all of them if you like it, or I can revert one or both parts of that if you don’t.

D’oh yes of course. I’m aware on what to when making goonery but cearly not for useful purposes :joy:

1 Like

implying goonery doesn’t count as a “useful purpose”

2 Likes

Nicely edited! I really appreciate someone else taking a look at how to make it more readable.

I think I like you’re way better. It’s definitely easier to separate rank and name, but I slightly dislike having the rank not bold, as it makes it stand out less. Not sure how to differentiate both in a clear way tbh. Also not sure how to best apply it to Oni’s 6-attack —> 6-throw.

1 Like