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@Barrelfish can you add sharpobject’s clarifications about “state based actions” to the description of the triggered actions timing stuff? It would be really useful to have that in a place where it’s easy to refer to it in the future.


Pretty sure this should read ‘discarded’ not ‘trashed’. Just in case anyone is planning to repost it anywhere, it might be worth fixing the error, or people may be confused.


If I have both Fox Primus and Fox’s Den Students in hand, does the order I play them matter? FDS says my ninjas have haste and stealth this turn, so I assume it retroactively applies if I play a ninja after it. It doesn’t matter for my current game, but could be relevant with Geiger shenanigans in later games (I’m playing [Ninjutsu]/Growth/Present).


There’s no difference in ordering, afaik. FDS gives any ninja you control on your turn haste, whether or not they enter your control before or after you play FDS.


Great! So as I thought, a potential play could be something like:

  • FDS, suicide all 4 ninjas into things
  • Inverse Power Ninja from hand hastily attacks something (as a 4/4 if only Setsuki and Geiger are in play)
  • Maxband Geiger to flicker IPN, letting her attack something hastily a second time

Present has better synergy with Ninjutsu than I thought…


Note that it works in your example because FDS has two effects: 1 that summons ninjas, and 1 that creates a passive effect for the duration of your turn. (One of the non-triggered passive effects @sharpobject referred to in his reply to my post earlier today.)

Contrast this to Nimble Fencer, which says "Your Virtuosos have haste."
This also creates a passive effect, but since a time window isn’t specified, the passive effect only lasts as long as Nimble Fencer is in play.

So if I have NF in play, then play Tenderfoot, the Tenderfoot has haste. If I then suicide NF into something, it stops projecting its “Virtuoso haste field,” and Tenderfoot loses haste. If I want to take full advantage of NF’s haste, I should have Tenderfoot attack before NF.


Something similar to this actually became relevant in a game I played once, where an opponent played Behind the Ferns, then buffed a Water Elemental to 18 attack and tried to stealth kill my base.

I called for a ruling and it was determined that the Elemental does not maintain stealth if its attack goes above 3.


Oh I guess so!

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Sorry to be necro-pedantic, but can someone point me towards a more official clarification that Polymorph does indeed overwrite subtype?

So, to see if I understand what the hubbubb was about.

Shadow Blade

Play it

Don’t do anything that isn’t printed on the card
(first target, then deal 3 damage, then check to see if died, and if yes, opponent discards a card)

After that is done, discard Shadow Blade

Do anything else that might have been qued from its effect

Is that the jist of it?


I have a couple of questions about state based actions

Are the following also state based actions:

  • Attachments whose target is no longer in play are discarded
  • Channeled spells are sacrificed if you don’t control the relevant hero

When multiple state based actions happen simultaneously, does the active player choose their order? (This has been implied by the fact that when multiple units die simultaneously, the active player chooses the order they are placed in the discard pile)

Was there a ruling on whether ‘until end of turn’ effects are still active when ‘at end of turn’ triggered abilities resolve? Is it different for ‘during your turn’ effects?


just popping in to say that this is becoming painful to read rather than interesting/educational :’(

Man, please stop doing this. We get it, your understanding of these rules is perfect. Some of us others aren’t so lucky, and this is the thread people come to in order to get answers.


That’s correct, yes.

I’m 99% sure that they are - a state based action seems to be anything that has to do with the “position” of a card (whether it’s in play, in the future, in hand, in discard, in deck, in codex) and specifically it is “something that happens because the rules of the game say so” rather than “something that happens because text on a card says so.”

Yes, exactly. If multiple units are returning to hand, you choose their order. If multiple Tech buildings are being destroyed, you choose their order. Of course, they all happen simultaneously, you’re just resolving them in a given order.

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If they are state-based actions then here’s a question for you (or @sharpobject, I guess):

I have a midband Orpal in play. My opponent has a L1 River, with 2 damage (2/1), a Timely Messenger (1/1), and an Older Brother (2/2).

  • Orpal casts Sickness, targeting River and Timely Messenger.
  • Spell resolves, placing a -1/-1 rune on both units.
  • State based effects mean both go to the discard pile, and Orpal gains 2 levels hitting maxband (River moves from discard to Hero zone also as a state-based effect, but I don’t think this is relevant).

I’m pretty sure it’s been previously ruled that Orpal’s max band ability doesn’t trigger here, as even though gaining 2 levels is a state based effect, it still happens after Messenger dying, and so he wasn’t actually maxband when it triggered.

Now suppose the situation is the same, but Two-Step is in play targeting Timely Messenger (3/3) and Older Brother (4/4).

  • Orpal casts Sickness, targeting River and Timely Messenger.
  • Spell resolves, placing a -1/-1 rune on both units.
  • State based effects mean River goes to discard pile (Messenger is now a 2/2). Orpal gains 2 levels hitting maxband,. Two-Step is sacrificed. Messenger stops receiving Two Step’s buff. Messenger dies (as it’s now a 0/0).
  • Does Orpal maxband trigger, placing a -1/-1 rune on Older Brother?

I should note that if Channeled spells are a triggered effect, not a state-based one, I’m pretty sure that Orpal’s maxband will trigger here. If it’s a state-based one it depends on whether there’s a priority-based system (@sharpobject’s post implied that some effects might not be as fast as others), or whether the active player gets to pick how they resolve.


I feel like this particular issue became complicated enough and had enough words written on it that someone should have used Reply as New Topic to let it have its own space. It might be unnecessary now (or not, since I just got ninja’d by a new question on this topic!), but that would have made it easier for everyone involved, since people could look at all the points being raised without having to skip over more normal rules questions.


I didn’t know about that function. Good point. Let me see if I can figure this out.

edit: I… can’t figure out how to do it. :frowning:

Click the link icon below a post, and it should have a button labeled + New Topic.


Thank you!

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Here’s a picture which shows the official squirrel tokens. They don’t have a subtype.

If they do have a subtype, it would be “Squirrel” judging from how the Ninja tokens benefit from Fox’s Den Students after they are created.