If a target becomes available later do I have to attach it then?
No, you definitely can’t do that.
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Does the Debilitator Alpha attack reduction remain in place for the rest of the game?
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Based on my understanding of Safe Attack, Rampant Growth and (the add-on building) Tower (how they interact in similar circumstances based on their wording), I would say that the effect of Defib Alpha lasts the remainder of the game.
That’s a purely a words-based reading of the card. By looking at it, I can’t imagine that’s the “intent” as its referred to, but I can’t speak on that.
Just my opinion.
“Spells are usually one-shot effects. That means they resolve, then go to your discard pile. Some are ongoing Spells though, which means they stay in play until something says they don’t. Sometimes ongoing spells have “channeling” which means they’ll be destroyed if the hero who cast them leaves play. Other times they say they “attach” to something, and if that something is destroyed the ongoing spell gets discarded too. But if they don’t attach to anything and don’t have channeling, they’ll stick around until something specifically destroys them.”
I’m pretty sure that in this line:
"But if they don’t attach to anything and don’t have channeling, they’ll stick around until something specifically destroys them."
the word “they” refers to “ongoing spells” not spells that attach to something.
So it’s not saying that a spell that says to attach sticks around if it doesn’t attach. It’s saying that an ongoing spell sticks around if it doesn’t say to attach.
Terrible use of an unclear antecedent, but he does use “they” throughout the paragraph (third sentence on) to refer to Ongoing spells (e.g. “other times they say “attach”…”).
My guess is that attachment spells (which all target) can be played without a valid target, but are immediately discarded without a target; OR playing them without a target is illegal.
It seems very doubtful that you can play it without a valid target and then it ignores the attach instructions and then sticks around. But it is still an ongoing spell, so I could see how that would be within the letter of the law!
“Units attacking Debilitator Alpha get -1 ATK.”
I always assumed the -1 ATK was temporary because it used the present participle (attack-ing). As in, if you’re not an attacking unit, you don’t get the -1 ATK anymore. So once you stop attacking (end of turn) it goes away. (I assumed that it would be permanent if it said, “units that attack Debilitator Alpha…”)
But you’re right that there are a lot of instances where “get” is permanent unless it says otherwise. Behind the Ferns does a continuous check, and it says units with 3 or less ATK “have” stealth, not “get” stealth. So DA could have been worded with “have” instead of “get” and it would be super-clear that it was temporary.
Ferocity, on the other hand, uses “get,” and it’s a one-time assigned thing, and it would be permanent if it didn’t say “until your next upkeep” (just like Rampant Growth, as you mentioned @Coiser). It’s not a continuous check, so if you play a unit after playing Ferocity, you don’t get the effect on that new unit. (It does a one-time check to see what your units are, grants them a one-time permanent bonus, then sets up a condition for that bonus to go away.)
So I would say that you’re right, and that Debilitator Alpha causes permanent debilitation, which is awesome because that makes it a much better card than anyone thought it was, and it might actually see play if ruled that way.
I also assumed that it was temporary at first. I figured I would ask the question, though.
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Heh, stealth errata for the win. Note that “attacking” and “get” are grammatically incompatible if you use the definition of “get” that has a specific time moment associated, as you noted.
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You never become unable to play a spell because it won’t have any valid targets. Another annoying thing here is that spells that say “Attach” are all “Ongoing spells”
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I really hope that Debilitator Alpha remains RAW (the rest of the game).
If so, would you side it in?
- Edit - I don’t see why it should have to be ruled that way. It should have to be ruled not that way. RAW it’s permanent, IMHO.
Hey guys, does Spirit of the Panda grant +2/+2 and “Attacks: Gain 1 gold” permanently? The card says “Attached unit gets +2/+2 and “Attacks: Gain ①.””
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As I understand it (and have been playing in practice games against myself), yes, the effects from Spirit of the Panda,etc are permanently gained by the attached unit (if one exists) for any ‘gets’ clauses. (It is still beneficial to destroy SotP/Soul Stones/etc to prevent their healing/‘extra life’,etc abilities from providing further advantage, but this usually isn’t enough for me to consider destroying the ongoing spell to be worthwhile and also why I thought there were so few ways to destroy them → its not very beneficial as the ‘damage’ is already done by them being cast on something)
I have not seen a rule that would lead me to believe otherwise. Is this not how those cards function?
Alright.
In my model of how the game works, the important thing to look at to tell whether a change in stats or ability is granted permanently is not the word used to grant the change in stats or the ability. It is the type of effect granting the change in stats or the ability.
For example, a card might say “Upkeep: Your units get +2/+2”. This says “Upkeep:” so it’s a triggered ability that gets enqueued at the start of your upkeep, then happens all at once, then is done happening. So if you had that card, it would decide the set of affected units when the ability happened, then those units would all get +2/+2 permanently.
Another card might say “During your upkeep your units get +2/+2”. This is not a triggered ability, it’s something that is sampled continuously. So with this card, every single time you calculate the derived state, you have to check whether it is your upkeep, and if so, all of your units get +2/+2. If a unit enters play under your control during your upkeep, it will get +2/+2 right away. But if your upkeep ends, all your units will stop benefitting from this ability.
If you want, you can check that I’m not changing anything up on you by reading some rulings on Midori’s midband (“Your units with no abilities get +1/+1”) from over 1 year ago. (Those rulings refer to an old version of the ability that granted a different buff, and I should fix that)
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It looks to me like Debilitator Alpha is of this (triggered, one shot, all at once, done happening) nature. Does this confirm that the minus to attack from him lasts for the rest of the game?
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The reason @JesusBeard posted that image (and I think he shouldn’t have done so, for what it’s worth) is that “units attacking Debilitator Alpha” is not a trigger, but rather is continuously checked like in @sharpobject’s 2nd example.
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I guess it depends on how you look at it.
fwiw (and I’m aware this is irrelevant to a lot of players), this is the same as in MtG. Briar Patch has a triggered ability that happens when you are attacked, so it has to specify a duration to get the -1/-0 to end. Watchdog does not have a triggered ability, its -1/-0 just stops applying to a creature once that creature stops attacking you.
My thought process was considering the (add-on building) tower. Tower seems like it works similar to D.Alpha in that its something triggering/occurring/etc during the attacking process. Tower damage (as I’ve been playing it) is permanent. I haven’t been removing the damage dealt by the Tower at the end of the attack (if the attacking unit lived) so I didn’t see why I would return the 1 attack power lost either.
This continually confuses me. Its difficult to refer to another game, unless the two games share the same rules (which I think would make them the same game). I don’t know much about those cards, or rules of that other game, nor am I interested in the “that rule applies, this one doesn’t, that one doesn’t, obviously that one does, etc”. Its very confusing to try to go learn about another game to understand this one.
I’m pretty new at Codex, so trying to learn it is complicated enough.