@Hobusu Thank your for giving such a great recap! I read it over once and will need to do so again.
The more I play the more I think how important it is to understand the starting deck for each color. At this point I would say it is the most critical part to understand and master. Maybe it is just that way for me. The rest of the game is not as nuanced and easier for me to understand.
As I said before I don’t get red. I play it very “clunkily” . It is obvious I don’t understand the starting deck. What you said up there about the first hand and rounds… I still don’t get. I don’t understand the “why” of red. I usually make the mad man a worker. He does not seem that good to me. Having that said every card I say that about I have been going back and saying to myself I just don’t understand how its supposed to be used. This game is, for me, is not an easy pick up and play kind of game. I don’t think you can just pick this up and intuitively play it with any success. You have to know the math. Although I love the depth I can see how people would easily drop this game after a few times playing it.
I am still discovering a lot about the game. I think that is amazing. It makes this game a master piece.
I actually came out very short because of the learning curve of the spreadsheet. I mentioned that early on. It was either turn 2 or 3 that my teched cards didn’t make it into my deck. I never had a chance to draw them when I should have. No worries beginners folly. It was to late to go all the way back and fix it.
This was a great learning experience. I appreciate your help along the way. I would enjoy another game. Let’s switch colors so I can watch how red is “done”.
I’ll let you go first and it will be casual on my end just like last time.
you missed an opportunity here (Turn 8). If you had spent 1g more, you could have had a lvl 4 drakk, giving frenzy to the glider, and being able to kill Argagarg, thus maxing Drakk, giving you a chance to create some nasty hasted unit next turn.
That’s a good point. At least to begin with, you probably need to learn how to use the starting decks more than anything else. The other parts will start to become more important as you get better, and the nice thing about the starting decks is that they’re each only 10 cards, most of which are relatively simple.
I think the best way of summing up Red is the way Sirlin described how he played it. To paraphrase, he said that he wants to end the game with his board empty, his resources exhausted, and he’d lose next turn… But he won by getting the last point of damage needed onto his opponent’s Base just before it was too late. Again, that’s not the only way to play Red, but the color is designed to support that kind of plan where you race to finish off your opponent before they can stop you. That’s why something like Mad Man is helpful, since there may come a time when you’re doing that strategy when you only need one more point of damage on whatever you’re trying to destroy and you need it right away.
That said, if you’d like me to clarify anything about either the Red starting deck or opening strategy, I’d be happy to! Just let me know what you’re having trouble with.
This is true, there is a lot going on in Codex. I know that before I got the Starter Set I had trouble teaching new players using just the Core Set, but I had a much easier time last week teaching a friend the basics using the Starter Set so there wasn’t as much to focus on at once. We’ll see if he gets lost when I move him up to the full game, though…
Yeah, I knew something like that would happen. Don’t worry about it, you seem to have a much better grasp of it now than before, and everyone makes mistakes with it their first few games.
Sounds good! I’m doing this on my phone, so I’ll edit in thoughts on this turn when I get home.
Edit: Thoughts have been added.
P1T1
StartingHand Workers
STARTING HAND
Nautical Dog
Bloodburn
Scorch
Makeshift Rambaster
Careless Musketeer
WORKERS
Bloodburn
NextHand
Bombaster
Charge
Mad Man
Bloodrage Ogre
Pillage
Discard
Scorch
Careless Musketeer
Makeshift Rambaster
Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($4)
Worker - ($3)
Summon Drakk - ($1)
Recruit the Nautical Dog! - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:
In Play:
Drakk Ramhorn Lv. 1 (1/3)
Nautical Dog (1/1) (Frenzy 1)
Buildings:
Base HP: 20
Economy Info: Cards:
Hand: 5
Deck: 0
Disc: 3
Gold:
Gold: 0
Workers: 5
Thoughts
Given this starting hand, I could use Rambaster to start a base race, play Nautical Dog and either Drakk or Jaina to threaten high damage output next turn, or if I’m feeling crazy I could play Bloodburn as a trickshot opening. Since I want to teach Azuset how to use Red, Dog + Hero seems best to bridge the gap between how he seems to think and how Red works. It doesn’t commit to a base race, it’s based on good play for any color (a hero and a 1-gold unit is pretty much always a good opening for player 1), and if I go with Drakk in particular I could reinforce the idea of how powerful granting Frenzy and/or Haste to units can be.
No need to patrol as player 1 against Green, since they have nothing like haste or spells that target opposing patrollers. Workered Bloodburn because it’s hard to find a good chance to play a 3-gold upgrade with such a delayed effect later.
If all goes well, I’d like this to lead into “EricF’s Recommended First Red Plan” of Fire units supported by Drakk’s abilities and spells.
STARTING HAND
Ironbark Treant
Rampant Growth
Tiger Cub
Playful Panda
Spore Shambler
WORKERS
Spore Shambler
NextHand
Verdant Tree
Forest’s Favor
Merfolk Prospector
Young Treant
Rich Earth
Discard
Playful Panda
Rampant Growth
Tiger Cub
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Recruit Ironbark Treant (3/2 -2 ATK / +2 armor while patrolling. (Armor absorbs damage before HP and is then destroyed.) - ($1)
Build Tech I - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Ironbark Treant (3/2 -2 ATK / +2 armor while patrolling. (Armor absorbs damage before HP and is then destroyed.)
I think you’re misunderstanding the Next Player box. Last game you put 2 in it, which didn’t help at all since @2 isn’t going to tag anyone on the forums, and now you’re using it to tag yourself… It’s really only meant to be used in a free-for-all game where there’s up to five players, so that you can automatically tag the person who goes after you to let them know it’s their turn. Because there’s only two players in our game, I’ve already told the forums to notify me if anyone posts in this thread, so even if you put my username in that box it won’t make a difference.
Edit: Corrected a mistake in my thoughts.
P1T2
Tech StartingHand Workers
TECH
Lobber
Lobber
STARTING HAND
Pillage
Bombaster
Bloodrage Ogre
Charge
Mad Man
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Build Tech I - ($3)
Recruit Bloodrage Ogre - ($1)
Float ($1)
Discard 3, reshuffle, draw 5
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger: Bloodrage Ogre (3/2) (Returns to hand if it didn’t arrive or attack this turn)
Technician:
Lookout:
In Play:
Drakk Ramhorn Lv. 1 (1/3)
Nautical Dog (1/1) (Frenzy 1)
Buildings:
Base HP: 20
Tech I HP: 5
Economy Info: Cards:
Hand: 5
Deck: 3
Disc: 0
Gold:
Gold: 1
Workers: 6
Thoughts
Ironbark Treant, huh? Makes sense, it would be costly to break through it this turn. Instead I’ll get Bloodrage Ogre ready for some smashing next turn. The only way he can kill it without trading Treant away at a loss is to summon a hero and use either Green starting spell to buff Treant enough to survive the combat, but then he can’t build a Tech I without having his only patroller be that lone hero. (Guess who forgot that he already built Tech I because it wasn’t marked on his board, even after reading that it was built in the turn actions list? This guy!) Just mid-banding Drakk would buff Dog enough for the revenge kill, and then I’d have a max-level Drakk ready to throw hasted units into play… So if he’s paying attention to Drakk’s abilities (or just how many ways Red has to punish a weak patrol), he’ll play another unit to reinforce his patrol instead.
Double Lobber tech to max my chances of getting one next turn, since a Frenzied Lobber is really good value (1 gold for 3 hasted damage). Workered Pillage because, as much as I’d like to keep it around in case I can punish a gold float, I think the other cards will end up being more useful in the long run with the strategy I’m going for. Patrolled Ogre in Scavenger because the extra armor wouldn’t make a difference and I’m only patrolling Ogre, so the gold would make it even easier to punish if he goes for that kill.
STARTING HAND
Merfolk Prospector
Rich Earth
Verdant Tree
Forest’s Favor
Young Treant
Rampant Growth
WORKERS
Spore Shambler
Rich Earth
NextHand
Tiger Cub
Tiny Basilisk
Giant Panda
Verdant Tree
Playful Panda
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($6)
Worker - ($5)
Recruit Merfolk Prospector (1/1) - ($4)
Recruit Young Treant (02) - ($2)
Draw a card for Young treant.
Summon Argagarg Garg (1/3 L1) - ($0)
Summon Wisp (0/1) with Argagarg Garg
Ironbark Treant (3/2 ( -2 ATK / +2 armor while patrolling.)) trades with Bloodrage Oger
Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 4, reshuffle, draw 1
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Young Treant (0/2+a1)
Elite: Merfolk Prospector (1/1+1atk)
Scavenger: Wisp (0/1)
Technician:
Lookout:
In Play:
Argagarg Garg (1/3 L1)
Buildings:
Base HP: 20
Economy Info: Cards:
Hand: 5
Deck: 2
Disc: 0
Gold:
Gold: 0
Workers: 7
Thoughts
I have a possible 2-4 attackers this up comming turn. I descided to trade with the oger in hopes to take less damage over all after my weak defences are broken. I was able to get young treant out to fill my hand size to 5 when I draw and get a descent SL out. Merfold was cheap, sadly, I will probably not be able to take advantage of his economic gains. My plan was to start out feral but being able to get a free meat sheild from Garg was too good to pass up. I teched a basy … well becuse its amazing. It will come in handy later in the game when I need to kill hero’s. Then I tecked the Giant Panda to continue fortifying my position.
Just a heads-up, you haven’t marked your Tech I as built.
Edit: Corrected a mistake in my thoughts (again).
P1T3
Tech StartingHand Workers
TECH
Gunpoint Taxman
Molting Firebird
STARTING HAND
Makeshift Rambaster
Charge
Lobber
Bombaster
Scorch
WORKERS
Bloodburn
Pillage
Scorch
NextHand
Mad Man
Lobber
Careless Musketeer
Charge
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float + scavenger - ($8)
Worker - ($7)
Level Drakk to Lv. 4 - ($4)
Recruit Makeshift Rambaster - ($2) Nautical Dog, driven to an even greater frenzy by Drakk, kills Young Treant Drakk kills Merfolk Prospector and takes 2 damage Makeshift Rambaster kills Wisp, you gain 1 gold
Recruit Lobber - ($1) Lobber kills Arg in a frenzy and takes 1 damage, Drakk gains 2 free levels and heals
Float ($1)
Discard 2, draw 3, reshuffle, draw 1
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:
In Play:
Drakk Ramhorn Lv. 6 (3/4) (Gives frenzy 1 to units)
Nautical Dog (1/1) (Frenzy 2)
Makeshift Rambaster (1/2) (+2 ATK vs buildings, frenzy 1)
Lobber (2/1) (Haste, frenzy 1)
Buildings:
Base HP: 20
Tech I HP: 5
Economy Info: Cards:
Hand: 4
Deck: 4
Disc: 0
Gold:
Gold: 1
Workers: 7
Thoughts
He took the bait, though he did make a good effort to disarm the trap – I thought for a bit that he might have put up enough units to prevent a hero kill. However, I ended up being able to wipe his entire board without any of my units dying, and got a max level Drakk out of it to boot! If he’d patrolled Ironbark Treant in Squad Leader instead of attacking with it, I wouldn’t have been able to break through this turn.
Teching War Drums for the huge ATK boost(I meant to tech Drums, but apparently I accidentally teched Taxman instead… Not that it’s bad, since an effective 4/3 with haste who can sometimes steal a gold is good, but I think Drums are better here) and Molting Firebird in anticipation of my Tech II being built (the odds of drawing it early are only 1/5, and it’ll benefit greatly from Drakk’s haste). Workering Scorch because I don’t think I’ll need it as long as I keep Bombaster around, and if I do need more direct damage spells I’ll just tech one of Jaina’s Fire spells instead. I can’t patrol, but that’s fine because he can’t attack.
I just noticed I may have been messing up my last game on the spread sheet. I’m not going to go back and look but I’m glad I caught myself this game. I didn’t add Ironbark Treant back into my discard after it died. This messed up my turn on the spreadsheet. I went back and fixed it.
It’s my turn 3 and I just got board wiped. The pressure is going to be on for the rest of the game unless I can somehow manage to outlast the onslaught until I get huge units on the board. It is really awesome to see how red can work in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.
If I spam more defenders I will lose my tech advantage. If I don’t My tech II building may die anyway. Either way if he does not go after my base I will be slowing him down.
I went with the tech II option. I really don’t see a great way out of this. I am glad I started teching for creatures and not spells at this point. I put down a basilisk because that is a guaranteed trade. I will also get a gold of the deal which is greatly needed if I am going to level the field.
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($8)
Worker - ($7)
Build Fire Tech II - ($3) Lobber trades with Tiny Basilisk, you gain 1 gold
Recruit Lobber #2 - ($2)
Recruit Mad Man - ($1) Nautical Dog and Mad Man destroy your Tech I, dealing 2 damage to your Base Lobber and Drakk destroy your Tech I, dealing 2 more damage to your Base Makeshift Rambaster attacks your Base for 4 more damage (Remaining Base HP: 12)
Float ($1)
Discard 1, draw 3
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:
In Play:
Drakk Ramhorn Lv. 6 (3/4) (Gives frenzy 1 to units)
Nautical Dog (1/1) (Frenzy 2)
Makeshift Rambaster (1/2) (+2 ATK vs buildings, frenzy 1)
Mad Man (1/1) (Haste, frenzy 1)
Lobber (2/2) (Haste, frenzy 1)
Buildings:
Base HP: 20
Tech I HP: 5
Tech II HP: 5 (Fire)
Economy Info: Cards:
Hand: 3
Deck: 1
Disc: 4
Gold:
Gold: 1
Workers: 8
Thoughts
This is almost certainly over already. I don’t see anything he can do to prevent base destruction next turn, especially if I draw Firebird. His best bet would be something like playing and maxing Arg, replaying Ironbark Treant and then using the remaining 2 gold to play at least one more unit, but even without doing the math I’m willing to bet I can get past that if I try hard enough. I could have played Careless Musketeer this turn instead of making it a worker, using Drakk’s max level ability to give it haste, but then I couldn’t build Tech II… Not that I need it that much anymore, but I’d like to play a Firebird before this game ends.
I just noticed I may have been messing up my last game on the spread sheet. I’m not going to go back and look but I’m glad I caught myself this game. I didn’t add Ironbark Treant back into my discard after it died. This messed up my turn on the spreadsheet. I went back and fixed it.
It’s my turn 3 and I just got board wiped. The pressure is going to be on for the rest of the game unless I can somehow manage to outlast the onslaught until I get huge units on the board. It is really awesome to see how red can work in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.
If I spam more defenders I will lose my tech advantage. If I don’t My tech II building may die anyway. Either way if he does not go after my base I will be slowing him down.
I went with the tech II option. I really don’t see a great way out of this. I am glad I started teching for creatures and not spells at this point. I put down a basilisk because that is a guaranteed trade. I will also get a gold of the deal which is greatly needed if I am going to level the field.
[/details]
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($9)
Recruit Molting Firebird, which gets haste from Drakk’s max level ability - ($5) Molting Firebird flies over your patrol and attacks your Base, dealing 5 damage to it (Remaining Base HP: 7) As Firebird attacks its molting feathers deal 1 damage to every unit and hero you control, killing Prospector and Wisp and giving you 1 gold Drakk and Lobber kill Ironbark Treant, each taking 1 damage Mad Man kills Young Treant, you draw Rambaster rams your Base for 4 damage (Base HP: 3) Nautical Dog bites your Base for 3 damage (Base: 0)
Board Info: In Play:
Drakk Ramhorn Lv. 6 (3/3) (Gives frenzy 1 to units)
Nautical Dog (1/1) (Frenzy 2)
Makeshift Rambaster (1/2) (+2 ATK vs buildings, frenzy 1)
Mad Man (1/1) (Haste, frenzy 1)
Lobber (2/1) (Haste, frenzy 1)
Molting Firebird (4/3) (Flying, haste, frenzy 1, damages a building: deal 1 damage to every unit and hero that opponent controls)
Going to be away for at least an hour, but the short version of my thoughts are that trading away Ironbark Treant was probably a mistake and—while I don’t have time right now for any specific examples of how you could have done it in this match—it’s important to always try to set up your patrol so Red keeps as few of its attackers alive after their attack as possible. Once I get back to my computer I’ll probably also want to look and see if you had any better options on your first two turns given the hands you had at the time.
Edit: @Azuset, I’ve added some thoughts on the first three turns.
Thoughts on Turns 1 and 2
Let’s start by putting your first two hands here for reference:
Ironbark Treant was a fair play here, and patrolling it in Squad Leader was correct since I wasn’t going to attack with something that had more than 1 HP (unless I did something crazy like Charge an Ogre, but then I wouldn’t have enough gold to build Tech I). An alternative opening might have been Tiger Cub and a Hero, with your Tech I waiting for turn 2. Cub and Calamandra in particular would be strong if I couldn’t kill Cala quickly since the threat of her using stealth to get a hero kill might force me to build a Tower instead of keeping the pressure on you. I could have gotten past Cub to kill Cala with the hand I had, but that would require two cards from my hand and 4 gold, meaning that if I still hire a worker I’m down to 4 cards in my next hand and don’t get a Tech I, plus the only thing on my board is a Lv. 3 Drakk.
Turn 2, I think, is where you hung yourself… And I must confess that if you read my thoughts, I’d intentionally given you the rope to do it with!
Before anything else, I’m not sure I agree with your tech choices for this turn. Tiny Basilisk and Giant Panda are good cards, but I’m curious why you picked them specifically… With my Dog and Ogre threatening you, a card that can’t block Tech 0 units like Tiny Basilisk seems like it would only be useful to attack, and that assumes it gets a chance to attack. Meanwhile, while Giant Panda didn’t get played, it has the problem of only giving you a 0/1 on defense the turn you play it, but you still have to pay 3 gold. Yes, getting a total of 5 HP for 3 gold is pretty good, but the lack of immediacy for most of that can get you in trouble if Red is putting a lot of pressure on you. Though it does have the advantage of being less useful as a Kidnapping target… (Speaking of which, Tiny Basilisk is a pretty good Kidnapping target since that could potentially let the Red player take it, walk it past your Tech 0 patrollers and trade it with your hero).
I think keeping Ironbark Treant and patrolling it in Squad Leader would have been a better choice than trading it for Bloodrage Ogre, since it would be impossible for me to kill it with only a single attacker unless I did something to give haste to a Taxman or Firebat (and that would cost two cards for one attack, so it still would be good value for you). For that matter, I think casting Forest’s Favor on Ironbark Treant instead of playing Young Treant might have been a good move, since that would guarantee that I would need at least two attackers to get through 3 HP and 3 armor, both of which would die if they had 2 HP or less. Even if I’d gotten through that and killed Arg then, I wouldn’t have as many units alive later, and that’s really important – every unit that Red can keep alive to attack another turn is often a free chance to kill one of your patrollers. Also, it’s worth noting that trading Ironbark Treant for Bloodrage Ogre got rid of a unit that cost you 3 gold to remove a unit that only cost me 2 gold, or 1 gold after the scavenger bonus.
I’ll admit I’m theory-crafting a bit here, partly because I’m tired enough right now that I don’t want to run through all the scenarios, but if you’d just played Arg + Prospector + Forest’s Favor and patrolled Ironbark Treant in Squad Leader and Prospector in Technician (to get back to full hand size if I get through), that would have gone better for you.
Thoughts on Turn 3
I think the game was effectively sealed at the end of your Turn 3. As a reminder, I had just wiped everything off of your board without any casualties on my end, meaning that I had three units and a hero to attack with without even playing any more cards. One of those units was even Makeshift Rambaster, which specializes in destroying buildings. With that in mind, spending 4 gold on a Tech II building you couldn’t defend was a huge mistake.
To be fair, since you didn’t realize that losing both Tech buildings would prevent you from rebuilding Tech II until Tech I was operational again, I could see the logic of “spend money now so I can focus exclusively on defense later.” I’ve even done that kind of thing myself before, but it rarely worked out all that well… I think if you’d played Giant Panda instead of building your Tech II, especially if you’d done the play I suggested for Turn 2, you could have defended better and threatened an attack from the Panda next turn (so I’d be forced to deal with it somehow instead of focusing on your buildings). Heck, you probably could have put Tiger Cub out too to be extra sure.
Base HP: 20
Base HP: 20
