CAMS 2017: holytispon ([Demon]/Future/Truth) vs. Bob199 ([Past]/Strength/Growth)

Hmm… You’re right, Promise of Payment makes a strong case for it working. All the same, getting an official ruling would be necessary if it would ever be relevant in a tournament game.

Sure. go ahead and ask for it. In any case, this is the ruling on Promise of Payment:

You will get gold from your workers before you have to pay the cost. Also, since you as the active player decide in what order your upkeep effects happen, you can collect gold from upkeep effects like Galina Glimmer and Gemscout Owl before you have to pay. HOWEVER, you can’t play cards or activate abilities (such as Merfolk Prospector and Rickety Mine) until your Main phase, so they can’t help you pay the cost. — Sirlin

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I asked on Discord, and either he or I will post here when he answers.

BTW, the Gargoyle issue is exactly the same. that’s also until the next upkeep. The problem is, there is no precise wording in Codex for timing effect ‘during upkeep’, ‘at your next upkeep’ and ‘until your next upkeep’ all just mean the same thing (which isn’t true about games like Thrones 2nd edition, where there is a distinction between beginning of phase, during a phase, and until the end of phase).

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I think the Gargoyle issue is different, and I don’t think that ‘until X’ means the same as ‘at X’. With Gargoyle, I don’t think there is any choice i.e. you can’t choose to have Vandy’s effect go first and kill Gargoyle before it become Indestructible. This is because Gargoyle states that it’s effect lasts ‘until your next upkeep’, which means that it’s no longer in effect once your upkeep phase starts. Ending an effect isn’t a trigger which is added to the queue, it just ends. Vandy’s effect however, is a triggered effect, and must be added to the queue and resolved according to the timing rules. The Promise of Payment ruling kind of implies that getting gold from workers also doesn’t go on the queue, and happens automatically at the start of your upkeep phase, so you couldn’t choose to lose the game to PoP by queuing the PoP effect before the ‘get gold from workers’ effect.

gargoyle is a continuous effect that ends as your upkeep is starting, the other 2 are triggered abilities that u will do after getting paid

  • sharpo, on Discord
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I think that’s pretty much what I said, except that ‘ends as your upkeep is starting’ is ambiguous. I think what @sharpobject means is that Gargoyle effect will always have ended before you get paid in your upkeep phase (and therefore before any other upkeep effects resolve).

ETA: NVM :slight_smile: I can’t think of a case where it matters :stuck_out_tongue:

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@Jadiel, you’re right - Sharpo ruled that ‘until your upkeep’ is one thing and ‘at your upkeep’ is another, which is also similar to ‘during your upkeep’. So there are two types of effects, so i was wrong about Garg. but the general point I was trying to make is that there isn’t precise language in codex, which requires these rulings.

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