I agree with that assessment from you both, “useful overkill” in that at face value it seems crazy and too big of a nerf, but in practice it hasn’t really been overkill at all! In fact, given the lucky / unlucky bounces that have rolled both ways this matchup, I would still even say black is slightly favored in this modification! Neko is an extraordinary Blue player and as familiar with this matchup as anyone else I know on these forums, and yet through absolutely no fault of their own is still barely scraping wins out here. Says a lot about the raw power of Black starter, Garth, and frankly Orpal!
I am not surprised to learn Orpal was overtuned in playtesting of this game after this exercise, and I think he largely gets looked at as underpowered simply due to being in the same color as Vandy and Garth, two of the strongest 5 heroes in the game (I’ll maintain that Garth is the S+ tier best hero, in a league all his own, and if we end up playing the 6 games with Vandy in but Garth out, I suspect the matchup will be slightly closer. I would say a lot closer but my gut-check reaction confidence is shaken after this exercise for sure!).
Anyways GL HF @Nekoatl! Looking forward to this last game here after all we’ve learned, though it looks a bit of an unlucky starting hand for you!
Hmm, looks to have been a rough P1T1 hand for Neko, but also not an ideal one for me. PBR behind Orpal isn’t a bad P2 response to Oni, nor would be haunt or jav, but given that he is likely loaded on his 1-drops, I’ll force a discard and give him a kill on Imp, putting two damage on Orpal isn’t a bad thing. Next turn I can try to spam skeletons or just get Orpal big and scary early
I actually think Garth is the weakest hero, at least in Blue v Black. Of the 3 ultimates, his is by far the least threatening to a Peace engine, his spells can’t combo discards with the Imp, and he can’t wipe out patrollers as efficiently as either Vandy or Orpal. Not to mention Nether Draining a maxband Blue hero is relatively unconcerning. I grant that he’s very effective at frustrating attempts at aggression, though.
I was indeed very unhappy with my opening hand, but somehow I was able to gain a surprising early board advantage, so I have no complaints.
P1T2
Tech StartingHand Workers
TECH
Spectral Flagbearer
Spectral Flagbearer
STARTING HAND
Building Inspector
Porkhand Magistrate
Lawful Search
Reputable Newsman
Traffic Director
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($6)
Worker - ($5)
Onimaru kills Imp
Tech I - ($4)
Porkhand Magistrate - ($1)
Traffic Director - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 1, reshuffle, draw 3
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger: Porkhand Magistrate (2/3)
Technician: Traffic Director (1/1) Untargetable
Lookout:
In Play:
L1 General Onimaru (2/1) Frenzy 1
Buildings:
Base HP: 20
Tech I HP: 5
Economy Info: Cards:
Hand: 3
Deck: 5
Disc: 0
Gold:
Gold: 0
Workers: 6
Thoughts
Whu-whaaaat? I think this is the first time I’ve ever opened with T1 Oni and not had Frozen respond with T2 Orpal in Elite. And patrolling as Scavenger, no less, which is basically inviting Oni to kill it. What’s going on here? It’s too early for him to be planning to finish him off with a surprise Sickness, and there’s nothing in Black starter that can finish himi off even if I don’t midband this turn. Maybe he’s up-rated Orpal’s value and wants to avoid the pseudo-trade? That, or he wants me to invest in pumping Oni then pop him with a Doom Grap or something, perhaps… I’m almost tempted to go The Art of War, but that would be a very risky investment without Flagbearers. Flagbearers come first, regardless of future developments. Now, what to do with this gold…? There’s no need to immedately midband Oni, so it’s a question between deploying units at the cost of hand size, or investing in infrastructure. I think using the units for suppression is more likely to be helpful… (in particular I want to make it difficult for him to deploy his Graveyard), so I’ll try that.
We’ll have to agree to disagree there, then. Garth’s maxband, skeleton spam, and potential for card draw along with a moderate combat body make him a terror. I haven’t even brought out Lich’s Bargain, which is nasty to deal with (though Judgment Day is among the best counters to Garth’s skeleton Spam, right there with DeGrey and Stewardess), and Nether Drain / Doom Grasp are pretty good at ticking the last point of damage on Quince or Oni (not very useful against Bigby, I agree)
And Summon Skeletons as well, eh? Very unusual game so far, but I have to admit, playing those units was probably a mistake. I want to Newsman here, but I need to midband Oni before the Haunt hits him. If going that heavy on Skeleton deployment, he may be planning to deploy Archery, in which case I need to be agressive in clearing them before they have a chance to snipe. I’d also expect to see Bone Collectors, so I’ll try using Hounds to reduce the number of times they can attack, but it’s a shame to give away patrol bonuses. Choosing to kill the Technician because Garth’s abilities allow him to convert gold to cards, but not the other way around.
Death and Decay, Abomination
Crypt Crawler, Lich’s Bargain
Main:
Worker (6)
Tech 2 Disease (2)
Haunt pings your tech1 to 4hp
Lich’s Bargain, base to 16 workers to 7 and the dead reanimate… (0)
Workers
Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Jandra, the Negator
Patrol as below
Discard 3 Draw 4 rs Draw 1
Tech 2 cards before my next turn
Board Info:
Buildings:
Base HP: 16
Tech1 HP: 5
Tech2 HP: 5 DISEASE
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Skeleton (1/1+1armor)
Elite:
Scavenger: Skeleton (1/1)
Technician:
Lookout: Zombie (2/2)
In Play:
Horror (3/3 deathtouch)
Garth (1/3 lvl 1)
Pestering Haunt (1/1)
Economy Info:
Cards:
Hand: 5
Deck: 5
Disc: 0
Gold:
Gold: 0
Workers: 7
End of Turn Hand
Skeleton Javelineer
Deteriorate
Sacrifice the Weak
Graveyard
Lich’s Bargain
End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts
I see two options here:
LB + Tech up. Classic move, presents problems for him and gets me into a position of strength. Probably tech like a cheaper tech 2 unit + Carrion Curse and plan to maxband Garth the following turn. Porky presents an issue thoGarth (6)
Summon Skeletons (3)
Make a third skeleton (2)
Tech 1 (1)
Worker (0)ugh. He can disable any really strong unit I try to work through, and LB is going to instantly prompt a Judgment Day
LB + CC + Archery. Gets me an immediately dominant board position, but will also insta-trigger a JD tech. Could Double tech Death and Decay along with this, would be a good feint, but I’d be reliant on getting scav gold to make that move work unless I can get a spending-free Oni kill onto Orpal next turn.
I’m torn because 2 feels like the much riskier but much more big-brained move, and I want these results to make sense from a balancing perspective. Maybe I can double tech DnD along with option 1 and make that work? Yeah actually that’s probably the best play. Okay, let’s do that. What’s the best tech 2 to provoke the JD? Necro? Yeah, but Disease is the most versatile and complimentary to DnD. Okay then, Disease it is. Do I want to tech one unit to be able to pivot? Abom is super strong against both the Peace and Truth plans, since they are both pretty unit spam-y. Okay, one Abom and one DnD, that makes my options super versatile.
…
Ha nice, got the LB again. That presents real trouble for him if Garth survives (not at all a guarantee, in fact I half expect him to go pretty hard at that plan)
This worked out much better than expected. With Nether Drain, he could have killed Oni and left Garth at level 6, saving his maxband for a tech II, and he was talking about doing that, but I had hoped it was a bluff, and it seems it was. However, keeping Oni alive is another matter, as Orpal can kill all 3 soldiers with his abilities alone, and the Haunt can kill a 4th. I can’t make it impossible, but I can make it more difficult. Hopefully he doesn’t have Deteriorate in hand.
Skeleton Javelineer
Deteriorate
Sacrifice the Weak
Graveyard
Lich’s Bargain
Events of Turn:
Upkeep:
Get Gold (7+1scav)
Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards
Plague Lab, Abomination
Death and Decay, Abomination
Crypt Crawler, Lich’s Bargain
Main:
Orpal + maxband (1)
Deteriorate techn, you draw 1
Haunt trades with backline Flagbearer
Worker (0)
Workers
Graveyard, Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Jandra, the Negator
Patrol as below
Discard 3 Draw 5
Tech 2 cards before my next turn
Board Info:
Buildings:
Base HP: 16
Tech1 HP: 5
Tech2 HP: 5 DISEASE
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Orpal (2/5+1armor lvl 6)
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:
In Play:
Horror (3/3 deathtouch)
Economy Info:
Cards:
Hand: 5
Deck: 0
Disc: 5
Gold:
Gold: 0
Workers: 8
End of Turn Hand
Death and Decay
Abomination
Thieving Imp
Skeletal Archery
Crypt Crawler
End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts
I think this is a win-win for me. Provided he doesn’t have AoW, either he clears his own stuff into Orpal and I can drop the Abom next turn, or he leaves Orpal up thinking I didn’t tech the DnD, and I wipe the floor with him. Sounds like a plan XD
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($8)
Worker - ($7)
Bigby Hayes - ($5)
Onimaru and a Soldier kill Orpal, runes spread to other Soldiers
Float ($5)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader:
Elite: L8 General Onimaru (3/3) Frenzy 1, readiness [2-]
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:
In Play:
L3 Bigby Hayes (2/4)
Buildings:
Base HP: 20
Tech I HP: 4
Tech II HP: 5 (Peace)
Economy Info: Cards:
Hand: 5
Deck: 1
Disc: 7
Gold:
Gold: 5
Workers: 9
Thoughts
Nice, he’s baiting me into giving up all my soldiers to kill Orpal. Considering he might have Carrior Curse, I think it’s worth the trade, especially since I’m guaranteed to be able to draw and play both Garrisons next turn. Floating gold for mega-deployment!
Bummer to have Orpal killed but that’s why we had the contingency plan. Peace Engine needs dinky units to get started, and I can crush them with two Aboms and Plague Labs to back it up. Grabbing a Nether Drain and another Lab. Should be able to keep it from getting going.
Man and then the Judgment Day?? Let’s get some Gargoyles in here to harass that nuissance Bigby… Patrolling Elite so he has to bring Bigby or else wipe a bunch of the stuff he plays with runes, let’s hope the Tech 2 gets some play next turn
Heroes are less scary without Vandy, by far, and I still think Garth is the easist for Blue to deal with. But, I kinda feel like you went easy on me during turn 1 which gave me a chance to start snowballing. Playing Lich’s Bargain into that didn’t help you either; it wasn’t worth giving up a worker so early, even if you did cleverly build your tech II first.
The Peace plan was meant to be a rush, not a grind, but bringing in an Abomination was a brilliant play that caught me off guard, and I had to quickly retool to deal with it. I’d actually worried that I botched that and threw away what was looking like my most solid win of the series, but my suboptimal tech choices seems to have just resulted in the engine losing a bit of steam rather than grinding to a halt. I think it could have gone much worse for me if the shuffler had decided to be unhelpful for me during those crucial Injunction turns, though.
P1T8
Tech StartingHand Workers
TECH
Macciatus, the Whisperer
Reteller of Truths
STARTING HAND
Free Speech
Traffic Director
Overeager Cadet
Judgment Day
Judgment Day
Injunction
Spectral Flagbearer
Spectral Hound
Reputable Newsman
WORKERS
Jail
Lawful Search
Bluecoat Musketeer
Manufactured Truth
Arrest
Porkhand Magistrate
Judgment Day
NextHand
Judgment Day
Building Inspector
Reputable Newsman
Spectral Flagbearer
Spectral Aven
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($10)
Sirus Quince - ($8)
Free Speech - ($6)
Hound and Cadet trade with Orpal
Overeager Cadet
Injunction: Tech II disabled - ($3)
Spectral Flagbearer - ($2)
Worker - ($1)
Tech Lab: Truth - ($0)
Bigby reduces Tech II to 2 HP.
Looks like my teching errors didn’t ruin me; time to start streamlining. Now that I can afford to buy workers again, I think I can gradually apply increasing pressure until I can tear down his infrastructure.
I’ll GG it there, you have me in a chokehold now and I won’t be able to get out. WP @Nekoatl!
I thought it would be worth hitting a card when you whiffed the one drops T1 and I don’t think that was necessarily “going easy” (in my experience with black, hitting a hero-only P1 opening with a P2 Imp really hurts the T3/T4 and allows for early pressure, but then again perhaps I usually follow that up with Vandy). I probably should have patrolled Imp in elite, though, so Oni couldn’t continue pumping out pressure on T3/T4 (that’s how you made up for what otherwise would have been a rough early game). I underestimated how well you’d be able to dominante on board early and still make peace engine roughly on time with such a card deficit.
The other “big mistake” I see in hindsight was not patrolling Horror turn 3. If I keep Garth for my turn 4, I can LB again AND wake up a tech 2 unit (if you kill the Scav, if not I just wakeup a Cursed Ghoul). That probably overwhelms the board in my favor.
A well played and very interesting series indeed, I would gladly play this version of the matchup again in the future!
What would you like to do next? Try subbing a “worst hero as if it were a Black hero”? Try subbing Vandy back in and banning Garth? Or something else?
I agree patrolling Imp as Elite would have been a stronger play, but I still don’t think it would have been as much of an obstacle as your standard Elite Orpal answer to early Oni. I kind of got lucky having both Director and Magistrate in hand on T2, but I would have been happy with Oni being able to clear the board without taking -1/-1 runes regardless of what else I was able to do that turn.
I also agree patrolling the Horror would have been better, but if your board had started to spill out of control like that, you can bet I’d rush Judgment Day straight away to reset it, and I’d be quite happy to have the worker advantage and to have the looming threat of a Tech III postponed by 2 turns. Hard to say how well I’d be able to corral your hoard in the interim, but between Oni and the Magistrate, I imagine it would work out okay, especially since no infrastructure or setup is required to drop Judgment Day.
Agreed, that was quite fun, interesting, and exciting. GGs, WP! 3-3, I think this matchup is pretty close to balanced, though I kinda feel maybe Black still has a slight advantage. Do you agree?
If you don’t think Blue had an advantage with Vandy completely removed, I’m not sure how substituting in any other hero for her would bring us closer to an evenly balanced matchup, if that’s the goal.
I think if we swap in Vandy for Garth, the results will be much more similar to standard Black vs Blue, but if you don’t agree, we can try it and see.
I agree, it’s way closer to balanced than the stock matchup, but I would still favor black slightly if we were to continue playing games. The starter deck is just so good it feels like Deteriorate to 1g and some other nerf (making graveyard topple on 3 units instead of 4? Making StW only work if you’re sacrificing something too, like Doom Grasp? Maybe making Imp a 2/3 but allowing the opponent to choose the discarded card?) is what really needs to change, and not Vandy.
I don’t agree, I think the results are closer to this series than standard. I’m curious why you think it’d be closer to standard? The typical Vandy bully into Meta strategy (I’m very familiar with doing it ^_^) pivots on an impossible gambit the opponent can’t counteract, and that is Garth’s fetch. You can almost always utilize the threat of Meta to force Blue into either teching to handle units, or teching to handle Meta’d heroes (Free Speech and Tower are the only practical answers really). If they don’t respect the Meta’d heroes, they risk a double tech break that can’t be recovered from. If they don’t respect the units on board, they just get run over with card / econ advantage.
I don’t think Vandy + Orpal can execute that strategy effectively. Orpal can’t even break a building on his own, so you don’t have the same threat of double breaks! Additionally, you’re not getting a free Tech 2 unit when you do the Meta. You can deal much more easily with a Meta’d Vandy when Garth isn’t her dive buddy.
I wouldn’t be surprised to find that black fares worse without Garth than it does without Vandy. I think we should at least try a couple games to see.
I’ll take a turn 1 tomorrow if you’re game to play back it at it XD
Given what we know now though, what nerfs would you suggest to Vandy that would scale to be more like this matchup and less like the standard matchup?
You make good points about Meta not being as dangerous without Garth, but even a 2-hero Meta with Vandy and Orpal can be devastating enough that Blue can never recover from it. If Vandy breaks the Tech II and Orpal breaks the add-on each turn, Blue is forced to rely on only tech 0, tech I, and spell cards… and working with only those tools against Black is hard enough without being locked into using only one hero at a time who has to cast Free Speech to even have a theoretical chance of dealing with the Invisible (possibly unstoppable by units) heroes. Bigby can only sustain that for 2 turns at most, at double cost, and bloating the deck with Jurisdiction, where Quince is already a particularly weak hero without Tech II-III support, and all the more so against Black. Even if Black never builds a tech II and just uses a Heroes’ Hall to setup Meta, that’s still comparable to early game Black vs. Blue with more gold available to both players, and since Black normally dominates the early game against Blue, I expect that would just be amplified, Blue would be starved of cards and not have the opportunity to play Free Speech, and Orpal’s midband and maxband abilities would just further help Black dominate until Blue’s base HP trickled within range of a killing blow. But, that all does require Black to use cards to clear the way for the heroes to attack, and I could be underestimating the difficulty of pulling that off after paying Meta’s cost. If so, there’s still Death & Decay as a potential win condition.
That said, it’s not so much a devastating ultimate that I think will be the deciding factor, but rather the increased early game pressure. Like, in these no-Vandy games, whenever Orpal was in play, I felt pressured to get rid of him before he wrecked me too badly, but I generally didn’t with Garth, and I think it comes down to Garth’s abilities not being very threatening without a Tech II building. Sure, he can pump out Skeletons and use them to draw cards or frustrate aggression, but next to Vandy’s sparkshot/fetch and Orpal’s rune distribution, Skeletons are comparatively easy to patrol against, at least without support from Skeletal Archery and/or Skeletal Lord.
I’m game for playing against Vandy & Orpal or nefred-Vandy & Orpal, as you prefer. For nerfs, I’d suggest first making Vandy’s level progression 1-4/5-7/8 and see how that affects the matchup.
In the Black starter, I think both Deteriorate and Haunt are worth $1, especially when compared to similar cards like Spark and Smoker. I think the rest is fine as-is.
Patrol as below
Base HP: 20
Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger: Thieving Imp (2/2)
Technician:
Lookout:
Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger: Porkhand Magistrate (2/3)
Technician: Traffic Director (1/1) Untargetable
Lookout:
Base HP: 20