Blue does have a variety of tools to bypass patrollers and damage a base (flying, unstoppable, invisible, disable, General’s Hammer), it’s just hard to field them effectively in the face of Black’s pressure.
5 Likes
You are right. I should state my points more clearly.
Right now, black is very, very gold efficient. I believe a number of minor changes that put more gold pressure on its strongest options will go a long way to reducing its hard early game pressure.
4 Likes
Okay, so putting all this together, are we looking at…
Dark Pact, Deteriorate, Pestering Haunt changed from $0 to $1
Metamorphosis gives 1 +1/+1 rune per hero instead of 2
Vandy adjusted to 1-3 (resist 1) / 4-5 (fetch) / 6 (unchanged)
… for the next set? Any objections?
3 Likes
I am totally game to give that a shot if you are. That feels like an “aggressively reserved” changelist that should have high impact in this matchup, while not totally messing up Black for other matchups where it is even / less heavily favored.
If after this, it still feels like Black is 7-3 or better, I think the next things to try are
- adding level reqs to Vandy (maybe bumping maxband to 7 or 8?)
- removing the targeting from Vandy’s maxband (I feel like it’s a good cleanliness / simplification change in general, could even be triggered on opponent’s turn, fits her flavor of risky tradeoffs w/ the Devil, makes Haunt worse to have around, and most importantly, helps this matchup while hurting other matchups minimally)
- adding Vandy damage to Dark Pact
So shall I kick off another 6-game set?
3 Likes
Sure, I’m very curious to see how this goes.
Same. I know Deteriorate to 1g on its own didn’t change much, but this all together feels like it ought to be enough to get to 6-4-ish, so I’m hoping we end this set 4-2 or 3-3.
I will refer to this nerf list as “Tax the Rich Demons”
I have a feeling I’m going to be more heavily weighing Orpal options… GL HF! (and please keep me honest on costs, I’m sure I’m going to forget and fuck up my spending here and there)
Set 3, Game 1, Player 1, Turn 1
P1 Black w/ Demon Taxes vs P2 Blue
Starting Hand
Deteriorate
Summon Skeletons
Pestering Haunt
Jandra, the Negator
Sacrifice the Weak
Events of Turn:
Upkeep:
- Get Gold (4)
- Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards
Main:
- Vandy (2)
- Pestering Haunt (1)
- Worker (0)
Workers
Summon Skeletons
-
Patrol as below - Discard 3 Draw 5
- Tech 2 cards before my next turn
Board Info:
Buildings:
-
Base HP: 20
In Patrol:
-
Squad Leader: -
Elite: -
Scavenger: -
Technician: -
Lookout:
In Play:
- Pestering Haunt (1/1)
- Vandy (2/3 lvl 1)
Economy Info:
Cards:
- Hand: 5
- Deck: 0
- Disc: 3
Gold:
- Gold: 0
- Workers: 5
End of Turn Hand
Graveyard
Poisonblade Rogue
Skeletal Archery
Skeleton Javelineer
Thieving Imp
End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts
I’m planning to take this first game with a vague underlying notion that things have changed, but otherwise proceeding as I normally would with the goal of pushing the new changes to see how much they tamp down my bread and butter Black strats. It’s not as if I’m intentionally trying to lose, but I do want to stress test how much this pulls things back as it will be valuable knowledge over the next couple games. So 1g Haunt + Vandy still feels the strongest opening here and I am therefore going for that to start with.
3 Likes
Roger that, there’s a lot of card changes here, and I’ll try to be extra attentive. Now, let’s see if a Tower will dissuade your Haunt from taking pot shots at my buildings.
P2T1
StartingHand Workers
STARTING HAND
Lawful Search
Bluecoat Musketeer
Building Inspector
Jail
Spectral Aven
WORKERS
Bluecoat Musketeer
NextHand
Manufactured Truth
Traffic Director
Reputable Newsman
Arrest
Porkhand Magistrate
Discard
Lawful Search
Spectral Aven
Jail
Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Building Inspector - ($3)
Tower - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info:
In Patrol:
-
Squad Leader: Building Inspector (1/1A) $1 tax -
Elite: -
Scavenger: -
Technician: -
Lookout:
Squad Leader: Building Inspector (1/1A) $1 tax
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:Buildings:
-
Base HP: 20 -
Tower HP: 4
Base HP: 20Economy Info:
Cards:
- Hand: 5
- Deck: 0
- Disc: 3
Gold:
- Gold: 0
- Workers: 6
Thoughts
Now that Deteriorate is $1, I want to try using the Aven, but right now, I need to focus on defense. The Haunt is still oppressive even at $1, but at least a Tower should be effective at discouraging it from taking potshots at buildings. This isn’t a great starting hand, but the balanced changes make it less devestating. I normally wouldn’t consider SQL Building Inspector to be an option, but $1 Deteriorate means it’s an even trade, though I’d rather he soak a hit from Vandy… otherwise he might Deteriorate, midband Vandy, and break the Tower with the Haunt. There’s no safe play here, but this seems like the best option.
1 Like
It most certainly will, as I like keeping it on the board, out of my shuffles, and ready to strike at the opportune moment.
Set 3, Game 1, Player 1, Turn 2
P1 Black w/ Demon Taxes vs P2 Blue
Starting Hand
Graveyard
Poisonblade Rogue
Skeletal Archery
Skeleton Javelineer
Thieving Imp
Events of Turn:
Upkeep:
- Get Gold (5)
- Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards
Dark Pact, Bone Collector
Main:
- Thieving Imp, discard #2 of 5 (2)
- Vandy kills SQL, takes 2
- Worker (1)
- Tech 1 (0)
Workers
Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons
-
Patrol as below
- Discard 3 rs Draw 5
- Tech 2 cards before my next turn
Board Info:
Buildings:
-
Base HP: 20
In Patrol:
-
Squad Leader:
-
Elite:
-
Scavenger:
-
Technician:
-
Lookout:
In Play:
- Pestering Haunt (1/1)
- Vandy (2/1 lvl 1)
- Thieving Imp (2/2)
Economy Info:
Cards:
- Hand: 5
- Deck: 3
- Disc: 0
Gold:
- Gold: 0
- Workers: 6
End of Turn Hand
Bone Collector
Sacrifice the Weak
Poisonblade Rogue
Jandra, the Negator
Deteriorate
End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts
Definitely going to feel gold pinch here, but DP + BC + Graveyard still feels like a great way to go here
By the way, I’m curious why we haven’t been talking about buffing blue. A couple of buffs for the starter deck could help alleviate this, or maybe law’s lacklustre tech 1s.
Just something to think about.
I’m curious how these changes go though!
I don’t feel like Blue needs a ton of buffs, and I also feel like Blue’s balance is really on a knife’s edge. The anecdotal vibe I’ve gotten from beta testers is that Blue bounced back and fourth between way OP and way UP with small changes and that resonates with me and my observations on the current state of Blue and how it performs in most matchups.
The best proposals I feel like I’ve heard for Blue is making LS a “one-time-use upgrade”, and I’d be interested to see how that plays.
But since Black is strong in virtually all other matchups anyway, and we have grown consensus over time for why Black is so strong and how to make it less strong in a fair way, that’s what I’m most interested in testing out.
If a consensus develops around which things in Blue should be buffed, I’m game to try them. For now, though, the only things that seem to have been largely agreed to are
- GatG needs a buff. I’d be game to give that “Always has exactly 1 attack, regardless of debuffs” or 2 attack something, but again, no clear “this is the thing that should buff him”, and
- Arresting Constable needs a buff. But same thing as GatG, what buff? Haste maybe? better stats / lower cost? Replace ability cost with “1g, once per turn”? All those have been proposed, none seems to have consensus as the change to make
There’s also a ton of chatter about Garrison needing a nerf. That one I happen to disagree with; I think Peace engine is mostly okay. But that seems to have a lot of thunder.
4 Likes
I also disagree with Garrison needing a nerf. Non-unit cards can really gum up the works, so going Garrison largely commits the player to a very limit set of strategies and telegraphs that choice to the opponent. Not to mention, the setup is somewhat expensive and the Garrisons themselves can be destroyed without expending board presence, so there’s enough room for counterplay.
P2T2
Tech StartingHand Workers
TECH
Flagstone Garrison
Flagstone Garrison
STARTING HAND
Reputable Newsman
Arrest
Porkhand Magistrate
Traffic Director
Manufactured Truth
WORKERS
Bluecoat Musketeer
Arrest
NextHand
Jail
Traffic Director
Flagstone Garrison
Spectral Aven
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($6)
Worker - ($5)
Tech I - ($4)
Reputable Newsman - ($2)
Float ($2)
Discard 2, reshuffle, draw 4
Board Info:
In Patrol:
-
Squad Leader:
-
Elite:
-
Scavenger:
-
Technician: Reputable Newsman (0/3) $2 blocked
-
Lookout:
Buildings:
-
Base HP: 20
-
Tech I HP: 5
-
Tower HP: 4
Economy Info:
Cards:
- Hand: 4
- Deck: 5
- Disc: 0
Gold:
- Gold: 2
- Workers: 7
Thoughts
This is still a lot of pressure. Doesn’t look like I can safely play a hero, but I think my Tech I will probably survive, so I’ll float gold and try to take advantage of being P2 to rush Garrisons. Anticipating a Carrion Curse counter, but with the cost increase on Dark Pact, maybe that’ll be more difficult for Frozen to pull off?
1 Like
Sirlin’s opinion on Garrison was that if you always play it (or sufficiently close to always) when you pick Peace Tech II, then it needs changed regardless of power level or fairness. It was meant to be a single tool in the Peace toolkit that you may use some games and would leave out others, not the most important card among that spec’s Tech II options.
He also said that Flagstone Spy was intended to be the card that people really wanted to play lots of. I’m a bit busy right now, but remind me in a few hours and I’ll find where he talked about it on Discord (including his proposed change to Flagstone Spy, there wasn’t anything very definite for Garrison I think beyond “it shouldn’t exist in its current form”).
1 Like
From memory, I think the proposed change to Spy was to remove one of the building-damage effects, and instead taking no damage from any source when attacking (“immune”).
1 Like
I think Garrison is only a “must play” in limited cases, specifically when facing a lot of discard and when playing a lot of free (or nearly free) units. It’s definitely Peace’s signature card, because it has the only unique mechanic Peace brings to the table. Everything else is available elsewhere, and often in a less restricted form. I think if Garrison were removed, people just wouldn’t spec into Peace, as regardless of what you wanted to do, there would likely be a more attractive option in another spec.
1 Like
Agree, I don’t think Garrison is the problem, but rather that Debilitator Alpha, Air Hammer, and Flagstone Spy are all underwhelming. To Neko’s point, you wouldn’t spec Peace without Garrison, which moreso tells me the other options suck (not Drill Sergeant obviously, though he is much less good w/o Garrison so probably wouldn’t bring Peace to a deck to tech into him when you could pick Growth instead).
Don’t want to digress from this game too much more, but just one other note: there are plenty of other specs with Tech 2s you bring 90% of games you choose that tech 2. I don’t think that’s a damning flaw of design. There are 12*20 = 240 possible unique cards to tech in this game, and even having them all balanced so that they are picked between 30 and 70% of the time is a highly ambitious design goal. To have some cards bare out to be the “primary” choices still offers a great deal of variety and a super fun game.
Sure, I can agree that the goal would be good to achieve (you’re really looking at all 36 cards in your codex as possible choices), but the fact that for a given deck, maybe 12-18ish are the ones overwhelmingly often considered, isn’t a deal-breaker for me.
2 Likes
Anywho, on with the show! I have to remind myself that I have access to Garth now, and Vandy doesn’t have sparkshot, and my Meta is weaker…
Set 3, Game 1, Player 1, Turn 3
P1 Black w/ Demon Taxes vs P2 Blue
Starting Hand
Bone Collector
Sacrifice the Weak
Poisonblade Rogue
Jandra, the Negator
Deteriorate
Events of Turn:
Upkeep:
- Get Gold (6)
- Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards
Soul Stone, Carrion Curse
Dark Pact, Bone Collector
Main:
- Imp hits Newsie for 2, takes 1 damage
- Deteriorate Newsie, you draw 1 (5)
- Bone Collector (3)
- Hero’s Hall (1)
- Worker (0)
Workers
Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons
-
Patrol as below
- Discard 2 Draw 3 rs Draw 1
- Tech 2 cards before my next turn
Board Info:
Buildings:
-
Base HP: 20
- Tech1 HP: 5
- Hero’s Hall HP: 4
In Patrol:
-
Squad Leader:
-
Elite:
-
Scavenger:
-
Technician:
-
Lookout:
In Play:
- Pestering Haunt (1/1)
- Vandy (2/1 lvl 1)
- Thieving Imp (2/1)
- Bone Collector (3/3)
Economy Info:
Cards:
- Hand: 4
- Deck: 4
- Disc: 0
Gold:
- Gold: 0
- Workers: 7
End of Turn Hand
Graveyard
Skeleton Javelineer
Dark Pact
Soul Stone
End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts
Okay still feeling very in control, but let’s see what the drop is here on Neko’s turn 3
And Vandy has resist!
That one I remember and tbh isn’t at all relevant in this matchup. Losing sparkshot is relevant, but having resist really isn’t.
2 Likes
P2T3
Tech StartingHand Workers
TECH
Overeager Cadet
Overeager Cadet
STARTING HAND
Spectral Aven
Traffic Director
Flagstone Garrison
Jail
Building Inspector
WORKERS
Bluecoat Musketeer
Arrest
Jail
NextHand
Manufactured Truth
Lawful Search
Porkhand Magistrate
Flagstone Garrison
Flagstone Garrison
Discard
Reputable Newsman
Building Inspector
Spectral Aven
Overeager Cadet
Overeager Cadet
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($9)
Worker - ($8)
Tech II: Peace - ($4)
Bigby Hayes - ($2)
Traffic Director - ($1)
Float ($1)
Stash 1, Discard 2, draw 4
Board Info:
In Patrol:
-
Squad Leader: Traffic Director (1/1A) Untargetable
-
Elite:
-
Scavenger:
-
Technician: L1 Bigby Hayes (2/3)
-
Lookout:
Buildings:
-
Base HP: 20
-
Tech I HP: 5
-
Tech II HP: 5 (Peace)
-
Tower HP: 4
Economy Info:
Cards:
- Hand: 5
- Deck: 0
- Disc: 5
Gold:
- Gold: 1
- Workers: 8
Thoughts
Heroes’ Hall. Looks like he’s aiming for Carrion Curse. Not good, but also not surprising. If I’m going to stash the Garrison, I need to be sure not to trigger a reshuffle until they go into discard, which means not patrolling a Technician, and considering the other hand size reduction I’m looking at, that’s a bit scary. On the upside, even if he ditches both Garrisons, that’ll lave Lawful Search in hand (unless he hits with a 2nd Curse, which would be devestating), giving me a chance to pull one on a lucky draw, though if I go for that option, I should probably tech Scribes next turn.
Comes down to whether I think you pre-teched the Garrisons or not, and whether I draw what I need to deal with it…
Set 3, Game 1, Player 1, Turn 4
P1 Black w/ Demon Taxes vs P2 Blue
Starting Hand
Graveyard
Skeleton Javelineer
Dark Pact
Soul Stone
Deteriorate + PbR
Events of Turn:
Upkeep:
- Get Gold (7)
- Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards
Shadow Blade, Metamorphosis
Soul Stone, Carrion Curse
Dark Pact, Bone Collector
Main:
- Dark Pact, base to 18 draw 2 (6)
- Imp trades with SQL
- Midband Vandy, kill Bigby, maxband and doom BC, you draw 1 (3)
- BC breaks your tech 2, your base to 18, I get a skeleton
- Orpal (1)
- Worker (0)
Workers
Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons
-
Patrol as below
- Discard 4 Draw 2 rs Draw 3
- Tech 2 cards before my next turn
Board Info:
Buildings:
-
Base HP: 20
- Tech1 HP: 5
- Hero’s Hall HP: 4
In Patrol:
-
Squad Leader:
-
Elite:
-
Scavenger:
-
Technician:
-
Lookout:
In Play:
- Pestering Haunt (1/1)
- Vandy (4/5 lvl 6)
- Bone Collector (5/4, doomed)
- Skeleton (1/1)
- Orpal (1/3 lvl 1)
Economy Info:
Cards:
- Hand: 4
- Deck: 4
- Disc: 0
Gold:
- Gold: 0
- Workers: 8
End of Turn Hand
Sacrifice the Weak
Carrion Curse
Metamorphosis
Soul Stone
Deteriorate
End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts
Now it starts to get iffy… Glad I teched the Carrion Curse, but it depends if I draw it or not. If I do I probably
Imp kill SQL
BC trade Bigby
Orpal + CC, check out what I’m up against, hopefully discard two garrisons
worker
If I don’t, I probably do the same but instead of Orpal + CC, I Midband Vandy, use her to kill Bigby, and Doom BC for the tech 2 break.
I’m gonna tech a Shadow Blade and a Meta, hoping I draw neither on the RS. Next turn will be whichever I don’t do of maxband Vandy or CC, as well as tech up, to get that sweet sweet Garth instamax.
This is definitely much more teetering on a knife’s edge than the typical Meta gameplan, I feel like I’m taking a real risk or potentially whiffing hard by doing this.