The only other unanimous changes I’m aware of are Rooks special blocks returning to hand on block-blodge (like Gwen’s 10*), his 3* working on gold burst, and Geigers TD ending on any hit.
The last of these would make GB a potential additional out for every character which especially helps Quince, Midori and Rook. It also makes Rook special blocks an out if they’re changed to hit the opponent - overall this would definitely make the matchup less feelbad for Rook.
Since Arg is the other hard counter to Rook, should BS also end on any hit, to make Rook special blocks relevant in the mix-up? This would mean GB would end BS too. I think Arg should dodge a lot during BS so it’s probably fine to have GB in the mix for the opponent, but maybe others disagree. What do you think @Zqxx?
Yeah I always wondered why temporal distortion and bubble shield ended on “hits from attacks or throws” instead of just any successful hit. Always seemed like an oversight.
Generally, I think this is the most sensible ruling. However, as a knock-on effect: does this mean Arg would no longer take damage from the special blocks? Currently, Rook’s special blocks do not pop BS but they still deal damage if successful.
To be frank, I would be in favor of wording them somehow so that Rook can have his cake and eat it too: deal damage while also popping shield. Considering that Arg still has counters to stop his blocks in their tracks, I don’t feel like this would be too powerful. I’ll have to think about it more though.
I think the wording you would be looking for would be something like:
Bubble Shield
If this blocks an attack or Joker, draw a card and this gets: Ongoing. Your Hex of Murkwood deals an extra 2 damage per turn. If you are hit with an attack or throw, take no damage and end combat. Discard this card after you are hit by any move.
Also, incorporating @FenixOfTheAshes suggestion above for an anti-gloria adjustment would give us something like:
Bubble Shield
If this blocks an attack or Joker, draw a card and this gets: Ongoing. Your Hex of Murkwood deals an extra 2 damage per turn and your opponent cannot gain life. If you are hit with an attack or throw, take no damage and end combat. Discard this card after you are hit by any move.
I think there’s still room for improvement in the wording. Just for reference, here’s the original 2nd Edition wording:
Bubble Shield(2nd Edition)
If this blocks an attack or Joker, draw a card and this gets: Ongoing. Your Hex of Murkwood deals an extra 2 damage per turn. When you get hit with an attack or throw, take no damage, end combat and discard this.
The new “3rd Edition” with both your changes and my own:
Bubble Shield(3rd Edition)
If this blocks an attack or Joker, draw a card and this gets: Ongoing. Your Hex of Murkwood deals an extra 2 damage per turn and the opponent cannot gain life. When you get hit with an attack or throw, take no damage and end combat. Discard this when you get hit.
Explanation of changes
“The opponent” is the wording used on official cards, and I believe using that wording makes it only affect the active opponent in 2v2, so Bubble Shield won’t prevent the +2 life per turn the benched opponent gets.
2nd Edition Bubble Shield uses “when you get hit” instead of “if you are hit,” and I’d like to stay consistent with the original wording as much as possible.
Removed “by any move” on the last sentence because it’s unnecessary and could raise questions of what counts as a “move.”
This is a big buff. Probably not broken, but I think it makes each of his matchups like ~.5 better on average? I understand the desire to make Rook’s special blocks function like Gwen’s 10*, but Gwen’s is balanced by the fact that she’s on a timer and her special block only extends that timer. I think the fact that he can use his “dodges” when KD makes them strong and unique enough without also having them return on block-blodge. I could be wrong though. @mysticjuicer thoughts?
Having a “hit” that both pops Bubble Shield and deals damage through it seems pretty nonsensical flavor wise and makes the ability wordier. I think having special blocks end BS is enough.
Once they count as hits, Rook’s special blocks become pretty efficient at ending BS. They only cost one card unlike the dodge->followup that normal characters use and Entangling Vines even KDs and speeds Rook up.
I’d be more in favor of changing the way counters interact with special blocks to have the special block be treated like a normal block, drawing a card and returning to hand instead of being discarded.
I know you called for juicers opinion here, but I hope you don’t mind me chipping in a little to explain the logic.
Rook, contrary to the way one might imagine a stone golem to operate, is a very high risk character. He risks taking tons of damage to either throw or RA his way through his opponents health bar. Without threatening AAAA, which is often very difficult to assemble, there is little incentive for the opponent to attack into his special blocks as his throw damage is so weak. Therefore the most conservative play in those game states is simply to mix in a lot of blodges to make him waste his options and ultimately remove one side of his mix-up. Once this happens mono attack becomes pretty much all but GG. This is an important reason why Rook has very poor comeback potential. It’s even worse against Arg and his counter as he can start the mono attack free for all much sooner.
If his special blocks return on block blodge it makes them an option select against this type of conservative play in the late game, which allows Rook to be a little more conservative. I’d also suggest they wouldn’t be nearly as awful to draw into in the early game (which I can vouch for being super feelbad).
I think there are probably a few people that would like this change, me included, as they would actually be working as blocks at this point. Imo there is no internal logic of the game reason for them to work any other way. However it was decided in development that returning to hand and drawing a card could be considered a benefit, and counters shouldn’t provide benefits. So I don’t think this is likely to change even if it would be *much* better for the Rook / Arg matchup.
Good points. At the very least, you’ve convinced me that special blocks returning on block-blodge is worth testing.
Regarding counters, that reasoning seems very questionable to me considering that Arg’s counter itself causes the opponent to draw a card. And if Arg counters other abilities that have negative side effects, the negative side effects don’t happen. Ex. Countering DeGrey’s 7* results in DeGrey keeping the card he tries to discard.
Oh yeah for sure, I absolutely agree that the counter/special block situation isn’t derived from logic. It makes no logical sense that attacks with abilities that are countered e.g. Oni’s 5 or Grave J, retain every other aspect of their card other than the ability while special blocks are discarded even though standard blocks would return to hand and draw a card by definition.
I think I once saw it explained (no doubt with a hint of sarcasm) as “because word of God says it works this way”
The one nice thing about a third edition never being made officially (though part of me will forever dream of it) is that we can basically ignore “word of God” on things like this and say “no, really, the game will work better like this.”
Yeah, my feelings are very similar to hug0’s. If you gave me the option of playing Rook as-is, or Rook with his special blocks replaced by dodges, I would pick the one with dodges every time. Troq and Midori (and Gwen and Menelker, to a lesser extent), are so scary because they put you in a truly risky set-up: you either need to attack in order to beat their raw throw-super, or you need to block/throw, to beat their dodge into throw-super. Rook’s 5s have a much lower pay-off - their benefit is tied to his opponent’s combat reveals, which is lower than “deal 50 damage” almost 100% of the time.
I don’t think his blocks coming back to his hand would drastically change his place in the tier lists, or significantly alter his performance against Arg. It might help him a little vs BBB, where losing special blocks at range against dodges can really hurt.
I think making BBBs Q 3.0 speed at range would help the Rook MU a lot, and maybe not change too much for his other MUs? He gets weaker to 2.X attacks at range, but he starts using normals and Aces to counterpoke those instead?
I dunno. It’s after midnight and I’ve just thought of this five minutes ago.
I’d be curious to hear what BBB players think about Junkshot. When playing him I found little reason to use it in non-grappler matchups tbh. When the opponent is standing, K covers dodges and is a better block punish anyway. When the opponent is KD, if I’m playing Attack I think 1.0 speed mixup normal -> A/Q++ is higher EV than Junkshot since I get normal draw and prevent the opponent from drawing if I guess right. And if I’m reading that my opponent is either playing block or DP and want to punish block, K is still better. It can checkmate low life KD characters who are out of reversals, but that’s very niche and checkmates are feelbad anyway? Maybe I’m missing something.
In any case, Midori J and Rook Q ending range vs. 3.0 speed Junkshot is somewhat helpful. I think the most oppressive part of Junkshot for grapplers, especially Rook, is actually the Overdrive Q effect that makes it unblockable and deal 16 damage. Outside of Gold Burst, Rook can only hope to trade with J or Rock Armor and BBB could still dodge if he reads that.
One idea I remember being discussed was changing Overdrive Q effect to make Gyro Spin immune to Rewind Time Jokers until end of turn. Thematically, it’s kinda cool for Geiger’s creation to have a similar Joker-proof ability and it’s a buff vs. non-grapplers. Plus, it would be really funny if BBB lands Robo Headbutt into Q++Q++ during Overdrive for an entirely Joker-proof 46 damage!
I would say most of BBBs match-ups could use some improvement one way or the other, and I think the root cause is that his design is so outré compared to the rest of the cast. It was a worthy experiment but I think he should be redesigned pretty thoroughly. (OTOH, the mirror is excellent! )
I dunno, the more I think about it, the more I like this “Q to 3.0 speed” change. It is the problem move in the grappler MUs, in Rook’s case in particular. I’m trying to think of a scenario where I’ve ever played a normal attack at range, and it’s literally “sometimes when they’re KD, I want to go for cross-up into Ace.” Even in those scenarios I often just go for Q or K anyway.
2.2 speed is the global “you must reversal or trade” speed for a huge percentage of the cast. 3.0 is still very good against Rook (he still needs to J or Q or AA), but I feel like it opens up the “at range” triangle a bit, because now BBB might want to try to play a normal occasionally to under-cut a Rook J/Q, which means maybe Rook gets away with blocking a little bit more?
I’m not going to disagree here, because you are correct: it wouldn’t make a lot of sense flavor-wise. That being said, the way that his special blocks currently work (they deal damage through Bubble Shield? But they also don’t pop it?) doesn’t really make sense flavor-wise either, so I’m a little undecided on how much that would matter.
I guess my concern was that, if Arg wants to start spamming AA and Q late game against Rook, Rook might prefer to get 9 or 16 damage onto Arg rather than simply pop the shield, context depending. To me, it seems like having special blocks pop Shield instead of deal damage is not as much of a buff as it is a change in the MU dynamic. I was interested in trying to really give Rook a buff. But, I am also open to having my mind changed on this!
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