Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)

I see where you’re coming from, but I’ve found that the Slow J side (with ability) is the one that is problematic in Troq’s best matchups. Against Zane for instance I think Troq prefers Slow J in most cases.

The Fast J side getting the ability is definitely weird since it’s so fast already, but as a result of it already being so fast its ability rarely matters in Troq’s good matchups, from what I can tell.

EDIT: Also how does having the Troq Armor ability on Slow J help vs. Oni? Doesn’t Slow J clash or beat all Oni’s normals anyway?

I was assuming a 2.2 speed Flame Arrow.

re-reads Flame Arrow suggestions

Hmm. I don’t know. 6 chip and denying draw is pretty vicious… Yeah, you can throw/attack into it to get it out of Jaina’s hand, and the slow side is at least an Ender instead of a Starter. But the early game against Jaina as a grappler is still very different than against Grave. Grave kind of has to respect your throws, while you really need to respect Jaina’s attacks.

Like, I guess you would maybe 3-block against Jaina a bit in the early game? Seems really risky to gamble any special blocks before the end game. You can’t guarantee you’ll find as many 5s as you’re going to want… I always hated playing the MU as Rook, so maybe that’s just me. I’d much rather try to kill her from 52 to 36, before her As and Qs become really troublesome. That’s not something Rook really gets to do. He has to deal with her dominant endgame, hopefully with lots of 5s and Jokers to make it less awful.

Having this move be 2.2 speed would be pretty nuts though, especially against Rook. Sure sometimes you get to throw Jaina’s J and she doesn’t draw another one. But she can still hit you with 5K56 or any other nonsense and make you really sad as she buys it all back.

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I think Hobusu meant Zane meaty normals.

I’d say that neither side of Troq’s J really needs the armor. A 2.2 speed move for 7 is good enough in the Geiger and BBB match-ups that you don’t really care about the ability. If you’re playing J at range against BBB, you want to deal with his Q anyway - pushing BBB to push normals at range over his Q is kind of fine, I think.

It maybe pushes Troq BBB to an actually advantaged match for the robot, which is fine. It’s still the best grappler-against-BBB MU by a fair amount, I think.

Not having another uppercut in the Zane and Valerie matches is good for both of them. Now he has the same meaty/cross-up defence as Rook against Zane, and Valerie mainly needs to worry about Q/K/AA, same as against Rook.

Probably you play the slow side of J almost never, except in specific match-ups where the armor part didn’t matter all that much anyway (Quince, Geiger, DeGrey, Oni, grappler MUs). Seems fine. It’s still a good card.

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Troq already has more answers to BBB normals than Vendetta does even without Troq Armor (I assume we are talking about range normals, because for close normals Troq Armor is irrelevant as 2.2 beats every normal BBB has).

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So just to summarise the relevant :troq: changes:

J* Troq Armor
Deleted

K* Lockhorn Skewer
This beats normal attacks that deal 4 damage or less of speed 5.0 or faster, but you still take damage from the normal attack.

I’m assuming we would not change his AA in addition to these nerfs. This means (in order of personal importance to me):

  1. :rook: and :troq: K are now different (!), but in most cases work identically
  2. :zane: 6-, 7- and 9-meaties beat J/K.
  3. :valerie: BoS normals beat J. No change vs K.
  4. :bbb: Ranged normals beat both sides of J (K irrelevant). 7-attack beats K/slow J.
    (Note: we also propose Junkshot —> 3.0 speed so fast J will beat it clean)
  5. :vendetta: 7-attack beats K/slow J
  6. :gwen: 5 normal beats K, 2-/3-attack beats fast/slow J (Edit: I forgot one! Thanks @zqxx)
  7. :rook: on entangling vines turns 4- attack beats J while 5-, 6- and 7-attacks beat K
  8. :onimaru: 3-/4-normals beat K

Overall this feels to me like a strong nerf to :troq: vs :zane: a moderate nerf vs :valerie::bbb: and a mild/irrelevant nerf otherwise. I think it seems like a pretty good suggestion. Especially since it lets us nerf Zane without worrying (as much) about his Troq matchup.

If this post gets some general agreement I’ll add them into the Bureau list.

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I don’t really see the point of the Troq K change other than to make it different from Rook’s K. I feel like hitting Troq’s AA would be a better change overall (make it 1.2 or 1.4 speed). That still gives you the twin answers of Q/K to Zane meaties, but AA and J are no longer in the mix.

IIRC, the reason for the change is so that Gwen can stuff Troq’s K with a 5 normal, whereas under current rules, Troq’s K wins combat against it.

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I think fixing AA so it loses to Gwen’s K would make a bigger difference for the MU.

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No, the main reason for the proposed Troq K change was because it seems to be the best way to nerf Troq significantly in the Zane matchup without significantly affecting other matchups. This means that Troq’s K loses to Zane’s 6/7/9 meaty attacks, which of course evens out the mu quite a bit.

This is especially desirable because of how severe the generally agreed upon Zane nerfs are. I’m not saying they are too severe, since Zane 6-4s most of the cast and MA is lame, but they would clearly leave Zane crippled vs. Troq unless a change like this were implemented to even it out.

@Zqxx when i proposed the Troq K change I didn’t even have Gwen in mind but yeah that would be an additional positive. Making Gwen/Ven vs. Troq slightly better and making Troq’s K different from Rook’s K are mostly just side benefits though.

@thehug0naut I think that’s great as a baseline, but I’m concerned about leaving Troq’s Aces untouched. Nerfing other things probably pushes him to just powerup more since his Aces are so godly. I’d consider/test one or more of the following on top of those: 1.2 AA (or even 1.4 as MJ proposed), 40 damage BU, 2.4 Fast J.

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I think I like leaving K alone and taking J and AA off the table as meaty defense. I think those changes to Troq, along with the nerf to his 10 ability will at least not make the Zane Troq MU any worse than it currently is, maybe.

Obviously I do personally like making Troq and Rook Ks different, but from a balance perspective I don’t really care how to nerf Troq as long as we do it and it doesn’t massively break anything else.

Let’s say we settled on:
AA to 1.4
J* deleted
10* requires standing Troq and opponent

Imo this is a large-moderate boost to :zane::valerie::gwen: and a mild-moderate boost to :grave::midori::degrey::quince::menelker::vendetta:. Most other changes are irrelevant, apart from :bbb: so I’m pretty fine with this plan overall.

While thinking about it (and this may be way off base) I’ve come up with something really radical for the satanbot, based on the load of hate he garnered earlier in the thread. What about if long range only banned normal throws? This is a bit like the change to midori’s dragon attacks to only beat normal dodges.

This change would give the grapplers the option to K throw out of range, but seeing as J/Q/A all beat it, it probably just means BBB has to actually play yomi against them at range, rather than it breaking his game plan entirely.

The only other characters with special/super throws are :setsuki::quince::menelker::persephone::gloria::gwen::vendetta:. I don’t really know how most of those characters play against :bbb: and whether throwing out of range really matters for them. For :menelker::gwen: it’s pretty costly, so probably mostly irrelevant.

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Hrm, :midori: already beats :troq: so 1.4 Eagle Totem massively hurts him in that matchup…

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Might be better to leave Eagle Totem at 1.2 then, and just give Gwen a better speed on K overall.

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I apologize for the topic rez…

…But what if the potentially legendary Yomi 3.0, nectar from the Font of Yomise, included a new universal mechanic? Parries! :o

Unofficial Rules that may be Canon Someday (Now with extra, spicy, detail!):

“Parrying is a way to negate & prevent an Attack without taking any damage. (Throws cannot be Parried.) All characters can Parry. To Parry, place a card of a particular rank face-down as your combat card. In addition, place your “Parry” card face-down next to it. If your opponent combat-reveals an attack of that rank - nice stuff - you Parry it. You start the game with “Parry” and “Non-Parry” cards that have your character’s unique card back on them in addition to the seven cards you regularly draw. These two cards allow you to signal Parry-or-Not without outright giving it away.

If you don’t wish to Parry, play your combat card face-down with the option you wish to use facing your opponent and put your “Non-Parry” card face-down beside it.

To prevent a 3 attack from Zane, for example, Quince could preemptively counter with a 3 of his own. The suit of the 3 shouldn’t matter, imo, but maybe there should be bonuses for exactsies Parries in which rank & suit match.

If you both parry, no one wins combat & your combat cards are discarded. It’s very similar to a Dodge/Dodge situation, but it’s kind of a Build-a-Dodge Workshop! :gear::bear:

If you successfully parry, you draw a card and the opponent gets to face-down a could-be Joker - after which you can follow-up with any single move you could normally play or a full combo, if you prefer! (And I think many will!)

If your parry isn’t successful, you get to face-down a maybe Joker if further hits are possible and your opponent finishes their combo. (If your opponent won combat with a Normal Attack they’d draw a card - as normal! :sweat_smile:) If you parried with a 3 or something & got hit with a Super Attack that’s an Ender and doesn’t allow for Pumps (Discarding cards for extra damage.) - you just take the damage from it right then.

In addition, if you parry with an Ace - and have two other Aces to spend - you may be able to successfully predict & parry an opponent’s Three-Ace Super Attack! If you don’t have enough Aces to Parry their Super but combat-revealed one anyway, it’ll be like you played No-Card in combat and you take the damage immediately and your Ace is discarded. (While playing in person this might sound challenging, but I think people would get used to it. In the online version it could be more restrictive and just not let that Ace get played as a parry, because you don’t have enough to back it up.)"

I think this whole Parrying thing is a very interesting mindgame unto itself, but it definitely still needs to be tuned & I’ve not tested anything about it yet! I’m just wildly imagining possibilities! It could shake up things if characters with slower Super Attacks could instead more often use them defensively through Parrying. Obviously, hit-confirming would then have more utility, but what if they have the Joker…? :cloud::eyes:

Right now, I think that Jokers should win combat against Parries, but can Jokers be used to Parry anything or what? They are sometimes wild! :smiley_cat::black_joker: But, I wonder what other people think about this! Are there other suggestions?

And maybe you could get a bonus by doing a “Perfect Parry” for actually matching the same rank & suit with your Parry card instead of just the same rank? Extra combo points almost makes sense, but then that’d mess up the purity of Onimaru’s 1 CP. wat to do…? :crying_cat_face:

Also, thanks again to @Cerrus for fighting against this ridic fan character I was making who had an ability to parry. It was really dumb at the time & I’m sorry for not changing it right then.

Edit: Thanks for the critique, @Hobusu!

I was really trying to use only components Yomi already had, but it is rather awkward to signal your Parry beforehand… Maybe it’d be better to have “Parry” and a “Non-Parry” cards with the character’s standard card back on them that you start the game with in addition to the regulation seven cards. Then, if you wanted to Parry with a 2, you could play a 2 face-down with your “Parry” card. If you want to play Max Anarchy raw, then you’d face-down an Ace along with your “Non-Parry” card. That would allow Parries to be more fully concealed, though it might be too cumbersome for some… :scream_cat:

Right now I’m struggling to understand how this would work in actual play. If you turn your combat card a different way before the combat-reveal to signify a parry attempt, and if parries only work against attacks… doesn’t that mean that you shouldn’t ever play an attack until after you’ve seen your opponent set their card down, and if it’s horizontal then you put something else down instead? Either I’m missing something about this that would prevent this kind of interaction, or the rules need tweaked to disguise whether you’re making a parry attempt until it’s too late to change which card you’re playing.

Beyond that, I’ve read this over twice and I still don’t know what happens if you parry an attack successfully.

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Sorry, my phone died while I was writing my post… Here’s what I propose to be the rewards/risks of Parries:

That’s a really good point, @Hobusu! I was thinking about this myself… And I was trying to use only components Yomi already had, but maybe it’d be better to have “Parry” and “Non-Parry” cards with each character’s unique card back on them that you start the game with in addition to the regulation seven cards. Then, if you wanted to Parry with a 2, you could play a 2 face-down with your “Parry” card. If you want to play Max Anarchy raw, then you’d face-down an Ace along with your “Non-Parry” card. That would allow Parries to be more fully concealed, though it might be too cumbersome for some… :scream_cat:

And, like I said, I haven’t tested this, but it at least seems pretty difficult to successfully parry even if the opponent isn’t playing off-standard things. If, for some reason, the opponent Attacks with a 3 instead of a 2 that you expected you potentially get full-comboed. Maybe that 2 would have been better as an attack?

Anyway, this might never make sense to be added to Yomi, but I thought it could be an interesting wrinkle & wanted to share it!

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If nothing else it would make for an interesting variant.

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That would explain it! :smile:

If you’re adding extra components, maybe only have a single card with parry/no parry on it and you point the option you’re using toward the opponent like a normal card? Or maybe have them be like the Challenge/No Challenge mini cards in Pandante, where they’re small enough to easily hide in your hand until a simultaneous reveal.

Yeah, it seems like a fun variant, but I don’t think I’d want it as a part of the base game. Maybe it could be used for an arena card? :wink:

Arise, ancient thread!

I had a thought regarding Gwen’s 10*, Gloria’s Remedy.

What if it worked a bit like a reverse Bubble Shield?
That is, after triggering it (in addition to healing 6 hp) Gwen no longer takes damage from her innate. This buff goes away the next time she’s hit by an attack or throw.

I was thinking of ways to make her better that don’t streamline away the things I find interesting about her. Making 10* better seems like a good place to start, and I thought this might be a better change than just making it heal more hp.

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I really like that idea