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#1051

I see where you’re coming from, but I’ve found that the Slow J side (with ability) is the one that is problematic in Troq’s best matchups. Against Zane for instance I think Troq prefers Slow J in most cases.

The Fast J side getting the ability is definitely weird since it’s so fast already, but as a result of it already being so fast its ability rarely matters in Troq’s good matchups, from what I can tell.

EDIT: Also how does having the Troq Armor ability on Slow J help vs. Oni? Doesn’t Slow J clash or beat all Oni’s normals anyway?


#1052

I was assuming a 2.2 speed Flame Arrow.

re-reads Flame Arrow suggestions

Hmm. I don’t know. 6 chip and denying draw is pretty vicious… Yeah, you can throw/attack into it to get it out of Jaina’s hand, and the slow side is at least an Ender instead of a Starter. But the early game against Jaina as a grappler is still very different than against Grave. Grave kind of has to respect your throws, while you really need to respect Jaina’s attacks.

Like, I guess you would maybe 3-block against Jaina a bit in the early game? Seems really risky to gamble any special blocks before the end game. You can’t guarantee you’ll find as many 5s as you’re going to want… I always hated playing the MU as Rook, so maybe that’s just me. I’d much rather try to kill her from 52 to 36, before her As and Qs become really troublesome. That’s not something Rook really gets to do. He has to deal with her dominant endgame, hopefully with lots of 5s and Jokers to make it less awful.

Having this move be 2.2 speed would be pretty nuts though, especially against Rook. Sure sometimes you get to throw Jaina’s J and she doesn’t draw another one. But she can still hit you with 5K56 or any other nonsense and make you really sad as she buys it all back.


#1053

I think Hobusu meant Zane meaty normals.

I’d say that neither side of Troq’s J really needs the armor. A 2.2 speed move for 7 is good enough in the Geiger and BBB match-ups that you don’t really care about the ability. If you’re playing J at range against BBB, you want to deal with his Q anyway - pushing BBB to push normals at range over his Q is kind of fine, I think.

It maybe pushes Troq BBB to an actually advantaged match for the robot, which is fine. It’s still the best grappler-against-BBB MU by a fair amount, I think.

Not having another uppercut in the Zane and Valerie matches is good for both of them. Now he has the same meaty/cross-up defence as Rook against Zane, and Valerie mainly needs to worry about Q/K/AA, same as against Rook.

Probably you play the slow side of J almost never, except in specific match-ups where the armor part didn’t matter all that much anyway (Quince, Geiger, DeGrey, Oni, grappler MUs). Seems fine. It’s still a good card.


#1054

Troq already has more answers to BBB normals than Vendetta does even without Troq Armor (I assume we are talking about range normals, because for close normals Troq Armor is irrelevant as 2.2 beats every normal BBB has).


#1055

So just to summarise the relevant :troq: changes:

J* Troq Armor
Deleted

K* Lockhorn Skewer
This beats normal attacks that deal 4 damage or less of speed 5.0 or faster, but you still take damage from the normal attack.

I’m assuming we would not change his AA in addition to these nerfs. This means (in order of personal importance to me):

  1. :rook: and :troq: K are now different (!), but in most cases work identically
  2. :zane: 6-, 7- and 9-meaties beat J/K.
  3. :valerie: BoS normals beat J. No change vs K.
  4. :bbb: Ranged normals beat both sides of J (K irrelevant). 7-attack beats K/slow J.
    (Note: we also propose Junkshot —> 3.0 speed so fast J will beat it clean)
  5. :vendetta: 7-attack beats K/slow J
  6. :gwen: 5 normal beats K, 2-/3-attack beats fast/slow J (Edit: I forgot one! Thanks @zqxx)
  7. :rook: on entangling vines turns 4- attack beats J while 5-, 6- and 7-attacks beat K
  8. :onimaru: 3-/4-normals beat K

Overall this feels to me like a strong nerf to :troq: vs :zane: a moderate nerf vs :valerie::bbb: and a mild/irrelevant nerf otherwise. I think it seems like a pretty good suggestion. Especially since it lets us nerf Zane without worrying (as much) about his Troq matchup.

If this post gets some general agreement I’ll add them into the Bureau list.


#1056

I don’t really see the point of the Troq K change other than to make it different from Rook’s K. I feel like hitting Troq’s AA would be a better change overall (make it 1.2 or 1.4 speed). That still gives you the twin answers of Q/K to Zane meaties, but AA and J are no longer in the mix.


#1057

IIRC, the reason for the change is so that Gwen can stuff Troq’s K with a 5 normal, whereas under current rules, Troq’s K wins combat against it.


#1058

I think fixing AA so it loses to Gwen’s K would make a bigger difference for the MU.


#1059

No, the main reason for the proposed Troq K change was because it seems to be the best way to nerf Troq significantly in the Zane matchup without significantly affecting other matchups. This means that Troq’s K loses to Zane’s 6/7/9 meaty attacks, which of course evens out the mu quite a bit.

This is especially desirable because of how severe the generally agreed upon Zane nerfs are. I’m not saying they are too severe, since Zane 6-4s most of the cast and MA is lame, but they would clearly leave Zane crippled vs. Troq unless a change like this were implemented to even it out.

@Zqxx when i proposed the Troq K change I didn’t even have Gwen in mind but yeah that would be an additional positive. Making Gwen/Ven vs. Troq slightly better and making Troq’s K different from Rook’s K are mostly just side benefits though.

@thehug0naut I think that’s great as a baseline, but I’m concerned about leaving Troq’s Aces untouched. Nerfing other things probably pushes him to just powerup more since his Aces are so godly. I’d consider/test one or more of the following on top of those: 1.2 AA (or even 1.4 as MJ proposed), 40 damage BU, 2.4 Fast J.


#1060

I think I like leaving K alone and taking J and AA off the table as meaty defense. I think those changes to Troq, along with the nerf to his 10 ability will at least not make the Zane Troq MU any worse than it currently is, maybe.


#1061

Obviously I do personally like making Troq and Rook Ks different, but from a balance perspective I don’t really care how to nerf Troq as long as we do it and it doesn’t massively break anything else.

Let’s say we settled on:
AA to 1.4
J* deleted
10* requires standing Troq and opponent

Imo this is a large-moderate boost to :zane::valerie::gwen: and a mild-moderate boost to :grave::midori::degrey::quince::menelker::vendetta:. Most other changes are irrelevant, apart from :bbb: so I’m pretty fine with this plan overall.

While thinking about it (and this may be way off base) I’ve come up with something really radical for the satanbot, based on the load of hate he garnered earlier in the thread. What about if long range only banned normal throws? This is a bit like the change to midori’s dragon attacks to only beat normal dodges.

This change would give the grapplers the option to K throw out of range, but seeing as J/Q/A all beat it, it probably just means BBB has to actually play yomi against them at range, rather than it breaking his game plan entirely.

The only other characters with special/super throws are :setsuki::quince::menelker::persephone::gloria::gwen::vendetta:. I don’t really know how most of those characters play against :bbb: and whether throwing out of range really matters for them. For :menelker::gwen: it’s pretty costly, so probably mostly irrelevant.


#1062

Hrm, :midori: already beats :troq: so 1.4 Eagle Totem massively hurts him in that matchup…


#1063

Might be better to leave Eagle Totem at 1.2 then, and just give Gwen a better speed on K overall.