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Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)


#1010

It was probably just my unclear language in that last post (as I was trying to be very brief) but I’ll try and clarify here. I’m still sumarising my wall of text, but hopefully this is a bit more enlightening.

Having thought about it a lot recently, I think almost all of Jaina’s problems stem from the legacy of her V1 build and how her various cards were changed or not changed when she was brought into V2. Her old deck is going to be the single most informative thing to figuring out what Jaina was originally supposed to do, and why her various cards don’t seem to gel together very well. (Note I don’t want us to return to this clearly god-tier character, I just want to establish the context for making future changes to her).

V1 Jaina

V1 Jaina had some very important differences compared to V2 Jaina:

  1. Her innate allowed her to rebuy any card if she attacked (no HP gating for DPs). She paid 3HP for normals, 4HP for faces and 5HP for aces.
  2. Unstable Power was played after a combat reveal to flip her revealed card at the cost of 10HP.
  3. Her 10s could be powered up and returned to hand when the opponent dodged.

Her original innate (and the lack of normal draw) meant that her Js and Ks were mostly irrelevant as combat reveals. I suspect this is why fast J is so bad right now, because it was never updated, and back then it didn’t matter what it did, it would have been relegated to power up fodder. K would also have been made irrelevant as a reveal as soon as she had Q/A, and then used entirely for dodge follow-up. She also could make do with a lot less blocks with this innate, as she could simply DP in lieu of blocking.

Unstable Power in V1 was very broken, mostly because it made her dodge reveals unthrowable and therefore completely safe. This might also explain why Jaina has relatively poor dodge follow up outside of stacks of Ks or Aces. Her 7* also meant that Knee Bash would act as the fastest throw in the game (even “faster” than PCP), which perhaps explains why it seems so lacklustre/pointless now. She also had a lot more useless cards to pump it with so it would seem like free damage. Reserving your 7s for their ability definitely seems less bad if you have access to an even “faster” option.

It’s very important to note that the way her 7* and 10* used to work, she would always be holding 7s in hand until they could do something useful, and she would periodically get all of her spent 10s back. This meant that if you were to sample her count of blocks and throws in hand, V1 Jaina would almost always have more than V2 Jaina. Her access to additional aces that power her damage were also not tied to her 7s at all, but to her 10s.

All of this to say that V1 Jaina was not a rushdown character. Her early game would have been very defensive because she could play safe moves without caring about the card cost (“reckless”). In the mid-late game she could chase kills by cheating on combat reveals and using her free aces (aggressive). I think both of these aspects were significantly diminished by the reworking of her 7* and 10* into its current form. Her lack of blocks has only become an issue because she has to hand manage her DPs until she’s on low HP.

So what would address some of the (intentional and unintentional) issues introduced by changing her kit? One way to try and give her more useable blocks and throws would be to move the distribution of her abilities (and change Knee Bash) to more closely match Geiger - another character with two very important non-recurrable abilties that he needs to spend for his gameplan. This would mean:

  • Move Smoldering Embers to her 6
  • Move Unstable Power to her 8
  • Make Knee Bash a 9 damage 2CP throw starter at 8.6 speed

Since Smoldering Embers doesn’t recurr, and Jaina has a very low block count anyway, its important that we start by moving it off of a block. Putting it on her 6 seems like the most obvious place. Making Knee Bash her most damaging, (but not fastest) throw then means that Jaina is automatically incentivised to throw with it, and she’d be pretty happy dodging into it early game compared to if it was her fastest throw. It also acts as her replacement 8 throw since she won’t usually want to play her Unstable Power card that way. She now effectively has dedicated throws on her 6,7 and dedicated blocks on her 9,10.


#1011

Imo these are the right things to change. If we need further nerfing of his degrammage we can drop AA damage to 17/18 aswell as removing MHG.


#1012

Your analysis of v1 Jaina was off by a bit, since Jaina was one of the only v1 characters that regularly opened with normals since they were cheaper to buy back and opened into a ton of damage, and had an out to flip them to dodge/throw with her 7.

I don’t exactly agree on the method that 6 throw should be buffed, we both think that’s a good avenue. But if smoldering embers is moved to another card (which would ALSO help her conserve blocks/throws since she wouldn’t be incentivized to dump 10s anymore) I’d say put it on her J instead. This would do the double duty of making it a better dodge followup (since now it does future damage) and also it just makes more sense that getting shot with a flaming arrow lights you on fire.


#1013

If PCP is an issue, I anticipate making knee bash an augmented normal throw will be an issue too.


#1014

Her Jack was changed. Charged shot used to be 8.6, Can’t Combo. Same damage and chip.


#1015

That does make sense, and I bow to experience rather than my theory crafting. From reading her cards I just didn’t see the incentive to open with normals as V1 Jaina if my 7* would be so much more valuable with dodge reveals in the late game. Though I don’t think this point really alters my conclusions much about why she could work with so few blocks/throws then and can’t now.

Moving 10* to either 6 or J makes a lot of sense imo. I think both Fenix and I have suggested this previously. Glad we agree it should be moved off a block.

Yeah, I missed “fast” off the front of that comment. Fixed now.

I guess slow J also made more sense if you could flip fast J at will to blow up a throw. Though I still wouldn’t reveal fast J if I could repeat DP for 4HP.

I really don’t think it would be anywhere near as bad though, because with current 7* Jaina has to telegraph when she threatens attack/throw, and she can’t play her aces as follow up.


#1016

Fair point. I’d forgotten Aces were verboten on UP turns.


#1017

Reminder that the 1st edition characters are on Yomibase as well, so it’s easy to check what changed between editions.


#1018

Thanks @Hobusu! I think we’re mostly debating what effect those changes had rather than what actually changed (I just goofed with not specifying fast J), but yomibase is a good resource to have.

Also I put the Reduced TR change under DeGrey as “Under Consideration”. I decided to split the difference of the suggested 8 or 10HP and make it 9HP.


#1019

@mysticjuicer I’ve adjusted the consensus on :gloria: to reflect your comments. Q-throw is now a 3CP ender with no other changes.

We can always look at the damage and pumps if we think its required.


#1020

Since Rulesless mode isn’t sufficiently usable, I took the liberty of looking at what changes we have in the Bureau of Balance (consensus or otherwise) that can be tested in the normal client just by player agreement. It’s not a very long list unfortunately, but at least we can test something.

Yomi Client Compatible Changes

:setsuki:
Don’t fetch 7s with 7*

:geiger:
Don’t follow up on Time Stop Throws

:troq:
Don’t War Stomp if the opponent is knocked down

:zane:
Play J as if it’s 2CP*
Max Anarchy doesn’t exist*

* these aren’t the full changes we suggest in the Bureau (we want slightly higher damage on J and a replacement for MA) but they’re close enough that they’d be useful for initial playtesting purposes.


Testing Suggestions

:troq:
this isn’t very substantial so it’s probably of least importance to test, unless there’s a specific match-up where repeat 10*s are the main problem and the J/AA changes don’t matter. I can’t think of one right now.

:setsuki:
This is potentially quite impactful across a lot of match-ups so it would be good to get literally any data.

:geiger:
This change is also broadly impactful, so any data is good. However I think it most significantly affects :quince::rook::midori: so they would be a good start.

:zane:
These are imo the most important changes to test. Knowing how Zane with 2CP J and no Anarchy plays against anyone other than :troq: (since we have further nerfs planned for the bull) would be really helpful.


#1021

I know we said no more theorycrafting, but I had an idea regarding Gwen and her structural issues that I just want to set down in writing:

Move Chillbane to her character card, and have it trigger off any special attack (so not aces.)

That makes her Q threatening without making it a Starter, and makes her King into an absolute terror. Chains of Ice will have to be rewritten somehow to still have a purpose in her kit. Links of Ice should be fine as is (although see below), but just removing Chains of Ice makes her dodge follow-up even weaker and that’s not good.

Then move Relentless Strikes to an ability on one of her ranks of normals (I suggest her 3s but that’s just off the top of my head). It might need a bit of tweaking to still be worth using, but on balance this is definitely a buff, and it should help in the few MU where Relentless Strikes is oppressive, such as vs. Menelker.

This would mean she can combo into triggering Chillbane off a normal, but that happens after the decision to facedown has been made anyway so I don’t know if that would cause any problems. It does mean she can potentially chain the “slowdown” effect for several turns, but blocking will become better against her so maybe that mixup is okay for her to have? If not, maybe rewriting both sides of J will fix it - kings are very valuable for her and comboing into Q is usually a bad idea, so the only no-brainer “combo filler” special attack she currently has is Links of Ice.


#1022

I don’t think it was this so much as “let’s not just do theorycrafting”

As to your Gwen suggestion, I like the idea of her getting the slowdown from her special attacks, but not the decision skipping. Imo that should be reserved for chains of ice only. It feels like it would be busted on her K.

If we don’t want to get rid of relentless Strikes, maybe we could move the slowdown to her Shadow Plague innate (to represent her being a plague carrier or the “chill of the grave”, etc). Something like:

Shadow Plague
During the draw phase, draw an extra card and take 2 damage. If you hit the opponent with a special attack, next turn their attacks and throws are 2 speed slower (This effect doesn’t stack)

Alternatively we could implement @fenixoftheashes’s idea of making some of her moves :snowflake: moves (similar to [range setting] being an icon). That way we could tailor exactly which special attacks trigger it.

The part I’m less keen on is moving Relentless Strikes to a normal. I think it probably has to be innate or nowhere, unless someone can suggest a good way to do it as an ability card.


#1023

Well, I’m not really opposed to either of those modifications of the idea, I just wanted the original propsal to change her abilities as little as possible.

I don’t think introducing :snowflake: moves is necessary though, since those icons would likely be on only a few moves it seems rather inelegant.


#1024

Having icons on a move seems pretty standard when you have one text apply to more than one rank, though.


#1025

Yeah this. If we want it to apply to Q and J, or even just Q and Chains of Ice, then adding an icon is probably the most elegant way to do it.


#1026

Ok @Arthurwynne I was thinking how your relentless Strikes on an ability card would work. I might have been a bit harsh in dismissing it out of hand. Maybe we can make it more elegant by putting it on her 9, rather than a card with a normal attack?

9* Relentless Strikes [During Combat]
Whenever the opponent normal blocks your non-Ender attack, you may discard a red and a black normal attack (and this card). If you do, the black one normal hits, you win combat (and it ends), the opponent’s block is discarded, and they draw a card.

Her Relentless Strikes now require a specific card in hand and can only be used a maximum of 4 times, so I figured it probably deserved the buff of removing the black normal restriction. This is very easy to add back in though if it’s too good.

If this idea works ok then we could look at moving the slow down effect of chillbane to her innate either as a blanket special move buff or as a buff to specific moves with a new :snowflake: symbol.


#1027

Makes sense.


#1028

For this version of cryomancer Gwen, where she becomes “the slow effect character”, I think there’s a risk that she could just be boring. I find that slow effects, in and of themselves, are actually pretty uninteresting to play with and against. Ideas that came to me as far as how to make the slow effects more interesting: allow for different strategies in how best to apply the slow, and have more ways for Gwen to take advantage of the slow beyond just basic speed dominance. I do like Arthur’s idea of having the slow apply to special attacks instead of messing around with icons for various cards, to keep things simple. Here’s an updated version of the Cryomancer Gwen build I posted earlier, which is basically just a version of Gwen I think would be very fun to play.

Gwen Grayson, Cursed Cryomancer (V2)

Lore: After the Dreadlands incident, Gwen contracted Shadow Plague. The strange disease steadily saps her life force and has also afflicted her with an icy touch that quickly freezes any living being she comes into prolonged physical contact with. Gwen was forced to give up her lifelong vocation as a healer and now relies on Gloria’s healing abilities just to keep from slipping into darkness.

• Relentless Strikes innate replaced with Icy Touch: Whenever your special attacks hit (even multiple times in a combo) or are blocked, the opponent is Chilled (:snowflake:) and their attacks and throws are 1 speed slower next turn. (Slow effect stacks.)

• Chillbane reads: “If your opponent is Chilled (:snowflake:) and Chains of Ice deals damage, freeze the opponent: they skip all decisions they would make for the rest of the turn and skip their next draw phase.”

• Possible changes not crucial to the design (although bear in mind the above changes already buff Gwen): Gloria’s Remedy heals 8 life and reverts to a normal block when countered, Dreadlands Portal has KD, Relentless Strikes ability added to a normal card, rename King attack (Burnbarrow) to something more icy/chilling (Shattershard? Shards of Ice?), damage/speed nerfs if too strong, etc.

So this build attempts to make the application of the slow effect more interesting by allowing Gwen to stack the slow at a rate of 1.0 per special attack hit. It also gives Gwen a different way to take advantage of the Chill/slow effect aside from basic speed dominance by making her Chillbane effect more powerful at the cost of requiring the opponent to be Chilled/slowed. The Gwen player could apply a 1.0 slow on each combat win to maximize the number of turns where Chillbane is a threat, but then Gwen’s 2/K Starters still lose to many characters’ reversals. So the exact amount of slow the player chooses to apply would vary depending on matchup, the cards they have in hand, and the player’s strategy.

I’d be hesitant to add a Relentless Strikes ability to this version of Gwen since I think it kinda dilutes the character’s focus: The reworked Shadow Plague that cpat proposed earlier seems like it would be better for the full-aggro Gwen that Relentless Strikes encourages. Maybe we could call that the “Cpatow Plague” build lol. I personally am more a fan of the semi-control Cryomancer build though.


#1029

I’ve not got a bunch of analysis or anything, but that version of Gwen seems like she could be real fun to play. I like that she would have a reason to use linker J a fair bit more than she does now.

She might also be encouraged to combo into Q, since she can now drop combos like 2JJQ+ or K++JQ+ to do decent damage and put the opponent at -3 speed on the next turn. (Not sure if it’s a good or bad thing for her build, just pointing it out)