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Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)


#909

It is her signature throw though…

Even if Burning Vigour became 2HP per buyback *and* the pumps became +5 (a common suggestion) it would be 5, 8 or 11 net damage with full buyback, so I was pretty sure it wouldn’t be a problem damage wise. It’s more how it might affect grapplers (though they are probably very happy if Jaina tries to throw them more), and does it actually help vs :geiger: etc.

I definitely think it helps vs :argagarg:


#910

Yes, exactly that. She has this one throw that’s different from all her other throws, it has a special name, and… It’s basically incorrect to use it except during Unstable Power because it’s so bad? This would make it a bit more useful (though still not her best throw for damage) in a flavorful way.

Grapplers may not like it during Unstable Power, but even then they can still attack if they’re expecting it. I don’t know if it helps much against Geiger, but it can’t hurt that matchup—even if players find it to be counter-productive against him, they can just choose not to buy back the pump cards, and if pump damage is increased that would almost certainly help at least a bit.

Enough said; I’m in favor.


#911

Yeah I don’t think it affects grapplers that much the more I think about it. In those match-ups it’s not going to be preferred much over high chip attacks. On Unstable Power turns it probably only means Jaina will follow up with pumps if she wins combat.

The main person who might hate it is Quince (since 8.6 speed beats K-spin) so it’ll be important to check that match-up out with this change.


#912

Yes, that’s true… Anyone with an above-average number of fast throws doesn’t fear K-spin as much, though I think that just adding Knee Bash to her innate without adjusting its damage wouldn’t make that much worse. If nothing else, he can beat both sides of her 6 during Unstable Power the same way he beats any throw that would outspeed K-spin: by punching them in the face. He just has to use something faster than 6-attack, so no Righteous Zeal.

As for wording, I think this would be a bit better than what you had before:

Burning Vigor
At the end of combat, if you combat-revealed an attack or Knee Bash, you may return any of your combo cards to your hand other than Queens, Kings or Aces. Take 3 damage for each card returned this way.

This has a nice side-benefit of also making it clearer to new players that dodging or comboing into an attack doesn’t count (whereas “if you attacked” is ambiguous).


Edit: Just a thought, but since one of the problems Jaina has is that all of her blocks are also attached to throws, would it be helpful to swap one of her dodges with one of her blocks? As an example, maybe her 10 becomes Throw/Dodge and either her 5 or her 2 becomes Attack/Block. This would give her fewer normals worth using during Unstable Power, but it would give her a block that doesn’t get lost completely if the other side is used (since she can buy it back) and would let one rank of her throws be safe from being lost in attempts to build hand.


#913

The one problem with this formulation is how it interacts with UP turns where you combat reveal an attack and then spin to throw-side or dodge-side.


#914

Ah, true. Forgot about the weird way spinning cards interacts with things that check for combat reveals. That does mean @thehug0naut’s wording doesn’t work on Unstable Power turns either, since it says “reveal Knee Bash” (so it wouldn’t work if you spin to it).


#915

Would “if you attacked or played Knee Bash” suffice? I’m assuming “played” would indicate the card you ended up on?

Also, the suggested wording is only a problem if we keep unstable power, and it got a lot of hate when he discussed it before. I’m not that bothered at the thought of losing it, as long as whatever replaces it is flavourful and makes good use of her kit.


#916

That wording seems like it could work. It shouldn’t be ambiguous what “played” means because Knee Bash is only the name of a throw and not an ability.

Burning Vigor
At the end of combat, if you attacked or played Knee Bash, you may return any of your combo cards to your hand other than Queens or Aces. Take 3 damage for each card returned this way.

(I just realized that in copying your suggested version to edit earlier, I’d included Kings in the list of cards that can’t be returned by Burning Vigor. Whether or not that’s a good change, I’d like this to show only the one change from the 2nd Edition ability’s text. Adding the Kings back in—if that’s decided to be an appropriate change—will be trivial.)


I think it’s probably best to keep Unstable Power for the “official” version, at least until some kind of consensus for a replacement can be reached.


#917

Mostly giving changes for either characters I play, or changes that I am confident will just improve game balance.

:quince:
Consent of the Governed to 1.0 speed (from 1.2).
Throw damage to 8 (from 7).
Flagstone Tax: On success, draw 2 cards. Opponent chooses and discards a card of theirs (before combo phase).

To anyone who has ever suggested J to 2.4: Quince would actually ruin the game at that point. 2.4 is too important of a number to give to his J for the simple reason that he gets to start a vortex afterwards on hit or chip.

:zane:
MA to 0.3 (from 0.0)
MA to 43 damage (from 50)
K no longer “goes off” if the opponent knocks Zane down (helps Gloria, Quince, Geiger)
79 HP (from 85)

:geiger:
Time Stop throws become Enders (removes stupid checkmates, enforces mixup normal/throw as the way to get high payoffs in Temporal Distortion).

2 attack renamed “Backfist”, speed to 2.4 (from 2.6), damage to 4 (from 2).
3 attack renamed “Step Kick”, speed to 3.4 (from 3.6), damage to 4 (from 2).
Time Spiral Hurricane chip to 4 (from 3).

Temporal Distortion ended if hit by Gold Burst Joker.

:rook:
Normal throw to 12 (from 10) damage
Q throw to 12 (from 10) damage
Q attack to 10+6 (from 9+5) damage
J attack to 5 (from 4) damage
9 throw becomes 9 attack
Entangling Vines functions off blocking Gold Burst Jokers

:degrey:
Troublesome Rhetoric heals 8 (from 12)
7 removed from game attack becomes a 9 damage knockdown ender (Justice Slide)

:setsuki:
AA damage to 15 (from 17)

:valerie:
Masterpiece damage to 18 (from 16), speed 1.0 (from 1.2)
Chromatic Orb to speed 0.6 (from 1.0), 12 damage (From 10)
Q damage to 8+4+4 (from 8+3+3)
K to 8 damage Starter, speed 4.0, cycles when wins combat
J to 8+8+8 (from 7+7+7)

:troq: :midori:
Swap AA speeds

:troq:
Troq Armor removed from J
Q to 8 damage (from 9)
K to 14 damage (from 15)

:chibibbb:
Junkshot to 3.0 (from 2.2)

:argagarg:
Innate replaced with Slippery Fish: When you successfully dodge an attack, instead of following up, you may instead search your deck or discard for a 7, reveal it, and attach it to Argagarg.
7*: Hex of Murkwood - 3 a turn. Falls off when thrown or knocked down.
Bubble Shield reworded to be treated as a stack of Hex of Murkwood while attached.

Some of the changes are maybe a bit crazy but I welcome any and all discussion :slight_smile:


#918

I am interested in your justification for such significant Valerie buffs. My matchup chart has Valerie at -0.25, do we have significant differences in where we place Valerie on the tierlist?? Also two of her biggest counters, Troq and Zane, are being nerfed in basically everyone’s wishlist.


#919

Sush you! Let me have this.


#920

Agreed, curious to hear it. Also: not a fan of the Arg changes, but curious about the thinking behind them.


#921

Imo this is the most interesting change suggested above. Being able to use TSH and J to beat blocks and checkmate KD opponents is a lot of the reason why Geiger feels so oppressive in a bunch of his advantaged matchups. I wonder if people have any idea how that would affect his disadvantaged matchups? Are those typically the ones where his plan A doesn’t work anyway?


#922

Note that this change goes together with buffing his fast normals though.


#924

Tfw you realize you read it wrong and your idea was what they actually said. ignore me

Funny story: I mix up Geiger’s abilities when talking more than any other character. One time I was explaining Yomi to a friend and told him that Geiger has a really powerful ability called “Times New Roman” lmaoooo. I’ve clearly been writing too many papers lately


#925

I have Jaina thoughts but I don’t play her so I need some review and feedback.

Both JonnyD and thehug0naut feel like a slower, more damage efficient J would be helpful in the early game, both to deal with blocks and as early game dodge follow up. Is the issue that playing a slow early game is just not on theme for the character? Looking at the proposed 10 damage/10 chip slow J that knocks down, for example, it has exactly the same damage differential as her normal throw if she buys it back.

I don’t really see how making Knee Bash a starter makes it a better early game throw either. Until Jaina’s at high hand, she doesn’t have the cards to sustain a throw starter anyway, so making it a starter just gives her another lategame tool. If the issue is throwing with a block is bad, I think a better switch would actually be to just switch up her block distribution.

Maybe a better answer to her having kind of crap answers to early blocks is to make her throws deal 8 instead of 7, instead of giving her a big chipping attack? It seems easier than threading the needle of an attack that (1) does well against blocks in the early game but (2) doesn’t make her a holy terror because her innate means she only reduces her hand-size/potential damage when it’s beneficial to her.

As far as I can tell, the “real reason” she has Knee Bash is so that she has a way of discarding 10s besides her Q. If we just move her current 10 ability to her 7, maybe that solves the problem and lets us get rid of Knee Bash altogether, since the ability she most wants in the discard is on the throw she is most likely to want to reveal anyway. Or leave it on her 10, but make her 10 throw/dodge? Either way, the ability sits on her preferred move of its type (throw, or dodge).

The other benefit that Knee Bash has is in its ability to prevent dodge/throw mix-up gamestates when combined with Unstable Power. In a standard game, Unstable Power gives her a 50/50 anytime she’s not knocked down - her opponent needs to blodge to beat normal/dodge reveal, and attack to beat normal throw. Knee Bash isn’t relevant to that mix-up decision, except to hedge out attacks faster than 5.6.

For the sake of making as few changes as possible, I’ll just assume that preserving an attack/throw spin is relevant to her MUs in general, so let’s preserve it, but move it somewhere else. Maybe replace a side of her J with it? Her K is already kind of her real “spacing” tool, since it’s 2.4 speed, compared to 2.6 on Fast J. So now she has 4.6 attack/8.6 throw on her J instead? Since this would get rid of Fast J as an ender, maker Knee Bash a 3 CP ender. That way she can combo into it off an attack and buy it and the pumps back, so not much changes in terms of her average combat damage.

I know a lot of people really want her J to be cool and important to the character but I feel like it’s really hard to do that. Make it 2.4 and it’s kind of a crap version of K. Buff it so you have more incentive to play it over K and you potentially make her grappler MUs completely awful. As it is, Rook has only J and AA to outspeed 2.4. With Troq’s J going to 2.4, he and Midori have two ranks of specials that can deal with it (Qs beating it outright, and Js trading).

I like the idea of her Q becoming 0.0 speed. Sure it kind of sucks on paper that as soon as she goes to 35 HP she can spam Q a ton and it beats everything, but at that life total she’s so weak to dodge anyway, and I don’t think 0.2 to 0.0 changes anything about the MUs she’s already advantaged in.

Giving her 90 starting HP is probably fine too - it seems less risky to make that change than to change her innate’s buyback costs, and I that at least one of the women in the cast would have 90 HP (even if her effective HP is still very low).

So, to summarize.

  • Throws to 8 damage.
  • 5s become attack/block
  • 6s become attack/block
  • 9s become throw/dodge
  • 10s become throw/dodge
  • Probably leave Smoldering Embers on her 10s - playing either side now puts it in her discard
  • Unstable Power ability goes to her 9s, maybe, just as a quality of life thing
  • Q to 0.0 speed
  • Replace her Fast J with Knee Bash, and make Knee Bash a 3 CP ender

#926

Jaina is such a hot mess. Her innate means she can’t have fast attacks, she’s not really rushdown because she can’t buy back throws, and she has like a pilebunker move so she’s kind of more of a counter-hit characater, but oh in the lategame she’s this AA/throw mix-up character with checkmates. Also her K is either meh or totally busted depending on how lucky you get with your draws.

…what if K was 8+7 and you could only pump it once, so it traded more but also didn’t have this ludicrous top end one out of every thousand games?


#927

“You think I’m hot? You have no idea …”
–Jaina Stormborne, 1st Edition flavor text


#928

I think the minimal (probably insufficient, but better than nothing, not particularly drastic, and approaching consensus) changes to Jaina would be:

  • 90 HP
  • 6 becomes attack/block
  • Unstable Power goes to 9* OR switch 7* and 10*.

That leaves her pretty much where she is but improves her average hand quality, access to throws and blocks (Knee Bash gets removed, but I’m not sure there’s any MU which would be negatively affected by these changes because of that?), and ability to use her innate. Thoughts?


#929

I don’t think it goes far enough. And I realize that’s rich coming from someone who wrote a billion words to just shift her moves around a bit and give her +1 throw damage. :smile: