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Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)


#61

Zane is totally his worst match-up, be reasonable here


#62

That one is bad as well, but is probably 3rd least favorite for me


#63

Ugh Zane. Though maybe the copper system makes the match more bearable.

I’d like to see a generally agreeable nerf for all three of those characters, but mostly Setsuki


#64

What about J being 2 combo points for Zane? That would slow his damage output down and his setup, without changing his gameplay any at all?


#65

Interesting… so that would mean that his hardest vortexting punish is dropped to 9QJ which is 25 damage. Admittedly that’s off of 2 cards if he gets the help from shenanigans, but thats probably less likely with this change. He basically has to choose between high damage or vortexing, which is actually quite a nice strategic development imo. Slows him down a whole bunch.

I’m absolutely not against this idea, but its probably a bigger change to his gameplay than you would first think. Though perhaps for the better (assuming a decent Troq nerf). Some comments from people who play Zane would be helpful (we wont throw things, honest)


#66

Random thought: if Maximum Anarchy is supposed to be a “weirdo, trick-shot” move, how about we just add some text to Zane’s character card that says he simply cannot power up for aces? Suddenly, being able to even use MA is unlikely: it really is a weirdo thing to play in a game! Also, this means Shenanigans is much more of a double-edged sword for Zane: if he flips an ace, he’s locked out of MA for the rest of the game.

If that’s too extreme, we could at least hamstring him by saying “Powering up a pair gains you no aces. Powering up a triple gets you one ace. Powering up four of a kind gets you two aces.” Put more succinctly, “You may only retrieve one fewer aces than normal during the power up phase.”


#67

Hmmm, interesting idea :thinking:

I like his powering up being slowed as it would mean that you can keep attacking him in neutral without worrying so much about giving him Anarchy, which would probably help :jaina::gloria::gwen::lum::menelker::vendetta: a fair amount. He still has 2s (vs Jaina), dodge and K as decent counterplay options so its not completely one sided.

Though I do wonder if it would end up being a big hit in matchups where he needs something like MA? I’m thinking :troq::grave: in particular.


#68

Seems fine to me for buttface to have a hard time being a buttface.


#69

Except I don’t think it was meant to be a weirdo trick-shot move. Besides all the dank Zane memes, its design is simply a very powerful multi-ace move.

From a design standpoint, ripping an otherwise universal mechanic from one character because “fuck that guy in particular” seems very clunky. MU wise, this makes him a worse across the board (hard to tell exactly how much), but it explicitly makes his worst MUs even worse. Zanes worst MUs were already pretty bad.


#70

Sirlin actually said it is, in a podcast.
However, no, we shouldn’t nerf it to that extent. A small nerf is probably ok, but remember that Zane’s bad matchups exist because his plan A doesn’t work.


#71

I’m glad someone else remembers him explicitly saying that, because @shax’s comment was starting to make me worry that I had invented that memory due to other forum members making jokes about it. :sweat_smile:

I would say I genuinely do agree with @shax, though, in the sense that my suggestion is a clunky, and therefore bad, change. But I only think it’s a bad change because it’s clunky and not because it nerfs MA.

I think the real problem here is a tension in Zane’s design:

  1. Maximum Anarchy is, according to designer intent, supposed to be a weirdo, trick-shot move.
  2. Maximum Anarchy is, in practical effect, integral to Zane’s game plan in certain MUs.

These are more or less incompatible statements, excepting a very generous interpretation of what “weirdo, trick-shot” move means. If MA is a necessary tool, then Zane needs to always be able to reasonably access and play it. But if Zane can always reasonably access and play it, it is no longer a weirdo trick-shot thing to play. It’s just another Really Good Super.

Of course, there are other ways to nudge it closer to being a “weirdo” move again. @Niijima-san’s suggestion of making it 50.0 speed is a good example. But we would run into the same problem, I have to assume, that this makes him worse in MUs he already struggles in. (For full disclosure, I am not an experienced Zane player, so I am simply taking anything you all say about his match up numbers at face value. :laughing:)

Of course, much of this comes down to the question of whether or not we care about preserving designer intent when we think about making changes to the game. Personally, I think designer intent is important and worth preserving. If we can brainstorm changes to the game that simultaneously bring it more balance while also maintaining, or even strengthening, designer intent, that is the gold standard. But there is a strong argument to be made that this whole “problem” I just raised can be wiped away by simply ignoring what Sirlin intended for the character and just implementing changes that are simple and effective.

That being said, if the reason we cannot make MA more difficult to use is because Zane’s “plan A” does not work well in his bad MUs, forcing him to rely on MA as an equalizer, that seems to me like a prompt that we should think about how to fix his other tools so that making MA weirder becomes ok to do.


#72

What are Zane’s bad MUs? Troq, Rook, Oni…?


#73

Fair enough. Personally I wouldn’t have guessed it.

Mostly troq and oni. Every single one of troqs face cards beat meaty normals, blocking a mix up literally makes him stronger, he has dodges, he has grappler health, and he has grappler throw speeds(strange that). MA is actually one of the few things zane has in the MU.


#74

Why do Zanes always play for KD against Troq/Rook? Seems like they’d do much better to just deal damage and use J’s for power-up (and to defeat the rare Rock Armor attempt vs Rook).

Vs Onimaru, Zane can actually spend a lot of time dodging, and generally gets good damage off random combat wins. I don’t think this actually counts as a strong counterpick to Zane. Oni does well, but it’s nothing like Troq/Zane.


#75

I mean J is still a 9 damage ender, and KD, even with normals being able to be beaten by K at this point, is not a disadvantage. It’s just less of an advantage as it is against other characters. Plus Raziek had solved that little conundrum by putting Shoulder Ram into his KD range against Troq/Rook while KD. It still pretty much beats everything they have that a normal would beat but also beats their Ks.


#76

Huh. I always thought SPD as meaty defence was the main reason those MUs were Rook/Troq favoured.


#77

I mean, it is. Zane’s power sources are a) trump throws against most of the cast, b) dominating meaties, and c) Maximum Anarchy. Those two characters take away two of those. But just because meaties aren’t as dominant doesn’t mean KD isn’t good.


#78

Yeah, if they spd every time they’re kd, that’s super exploitable.
KD still forces them to change their range, and you can use that to your advantage, it’s just more difficult to get as high value out of it.


#79

Is Grave not also a pretty annoying for Zane? Single ace trades nicely with meaties, both it and K shutdown Zane’s neutral attack/throw plays, Q and TPoS beat with everything but MA, 10* shuts down Crash Bomb and 7* gives you info on what to be scared of (or not).

I mean yeah its Zane so sometimes he does a billion damage and you just lose but I’ve always felt pretty confident on the Grave side of the matchup. In fact, was MA not mostly added to give Zane something that can beat TPoS? (Or did my brain just make that one up?)


#80

Maybe? I don’t know that it’s a bad MU for Zane. Historically Zane does pretty well in it (5.5-4.5), so it’s probably closer to even than truly advantaged? Could also be an artifact of Grave being harder to play than Zane, but I don’t think that would flip a truly bad MU to a good one in the historical chart.

edit: Looking at the MU results from Jan 1 2016 onwards, it’s practically exactly 5-5. Same when looking at Jan 1 2017 and onwards. So it could be Grave advantaged, but again, I wouldn’t expect those types of numbers from a truly great Grave MU.