Okay this is a preliminary look at what I would like Gwen to look like.
cpat-Gwen
85hp, 6cp
Innate (X): At the end of a combat when you hit the opponent, draw two cards.
Innate (Shadow Plague): At the end of the turn, if you did not hit the opponent this turn, take three damage.
Normal Attacks: x.0 speed
Normal Throws: x.6 speed, 6 damage, 3cp Starter
7* (X) - [During Combat] If your non-Ender attack is blocked by a normal block during combat, you may discard this card. Throw the opponent with this card and end combat. (They take six damage and are knocked down. They discard their combat card and do not draw a card from blocking.)
T* (Gloriaās Remedy) - [During Combat] When you block an attack or Joker with this card, take no block damage, discard this card, and donāt draw a card from blocking. Gain 8 life.
J* (Chillbane) - [During Combat] Whenever you hit with either side of this card, the opponent is frozen (they skip all decisions and cannot activate any abilities they would make for the rest of the turn.) Next turn, their attacks and throws are 2 speed slower.
Goals of the design:
Make her dodges stronger. Now that she draws two cards off of her dodges, even though her damage output is slightly weakened off of them without triple-Ace Dreadlands Portal. If we make her dodges stronger, reversals will be easier for her to deal with. (Also blocking is lame.)
Give her scarier throws. Now that she is slightly faster with her normal throws, and has the ability to both freeze the opponent with J-throw and deal great damage with a well-timed AA-throw, Gwenās opponents will not want to attempt to go block/dodge with her, because she can punish with throws and refuel after. Furthermore, I want to incentivize Gwenās opponent to attack more, which gives her more counterplay with her improved dodge.
Donāt have her fallback on some lame mixup when she is about to die. When Gwen players are close to death, their options are severely limited as to what cards she can play. With Shadow Plague only triggering if Gwen is unable to hit the opponent, this makes the endgame where she is about to die much more interesting than just spamming T-block or going for Dreadlands Portal/dodge mix-ups.
Actually feel like you can rushdown the opponent. Now that you draw more cards if you win combat, you donāt have to feel like you are going to run out of fuel, and you can keep pressing the advantage.
Most importantly, I want to make a more Yomi-focused rushdown character. Gwenās options are pretty good, but theyāre not the most dominant options in the game. However, if she continues to chip away at the opponent, she is rewarded with insane card draw and not-dying. She also does have some very good damage.
You donāt really want it beating to many of other characters DPs so 0.8 might be fine. Alternately, you could have her 10 slow people down by 1.0 speed on top of healing. This way it enables her rush down by creating at least one turn where most things canāt beat her K anymore. Itās like a mini J that could help setup a real J.
The occasional 10 block is already a part of her rhythm and this incentivizes getting back into the rush down after a brief downbeat.
Agreed. cpatās redesign is interesting to contemplate, but I like Gwenās current character card and toolkit. I donāt think it needs such a big change.
I mean, just make A throw do a little more damage (24 or so?) and have her take 3 or 4 damage, but only on turns she doesnāt do damage. I mean I havenāt mulled those over completely but something like that seems fine on first thought. Of course in this case 10 block should do something slightly different, so likeā¦
Gloriaās Remedy: if you successfully block an attack or joker with this card, do not take any damage from Shadow Plague this turn and discard this card. Draw two cards from successfully blocking instead of one.
There. Less turns taken to refuel and faster back to the rushdown.
Hereās why I made the changes I did. Gwen is not broken or busted or anything.
Innate - Okay this is by far the biggest change. It is the chief change that enables most of the design goals I laid out. I think everyone (?) likes a variant of this change.
7* - Replaces Relentless Strikes, which was left out of the innate. RS was intended to give her some pressure game off of her attacks, though I guess if you add the throw changes I made then maybe this is not necessary. As an added positive side effect, Midori doesnāt wreck my new Gwen anymore.
Damage tweaking - Iām not sure if this is actually necessary, but it front loads her damage a bit more. Not completely necessary.
Chains of Ice throw - I think slow, impactful throws are fun okay.
Dreadlands Portal - I donāt want Dreadlands Portal to be such a polarizing mixup that exists through most of the late turn games. With the increased card draw that Gwen has, Iām afraid that she would want to powerup most of her cards for Aces and play that mixup game. So I slowed it down and made it cost only two Aces, but itās also a 7-throw so it feels like she can actually use the 7* ability.
I was so surprised by the conversation that I actually transcribed it the other day but the Arg counter debacle kind of distracted me from posting about it. Iāve added my own emphasis too because I was so gobsmacked:
Another nod to Chipp is the reversal. Chipp has low life but he also has the best reversal in the game. Well maybe not the best but a top tier reversal if I can put it that way. Her only reversal is her dragon punch, right? Thatās on purpose to mirror Chipp so that even though sheās rushdown, you can use fast moves against her and youāre forcing her to use her very limited resource of only four reversals.
!!!
So it seems her Q, easily the worst reversal in the game, is inspired by a ātop tier reversalā. Iām definitely up for trying to fix that if we think it might work. Could we make that happen without breaking her/the game?
Oh and I also totally second making J* ācanāt activate abilitiesā so it really is super scary
What do you think of what I said earlier, about her problem not being her reversal?
edit: Keep in mind that the intent is for it just to beat Crash Bomb. Stuff like Valās Burst of Speed, or Oniās Final Authority would still beat J, since they happen before any moves hit, and the counter on J should only trigger on hit.
It seems like it could be a cool concept, but I donāt have much to say about it. Itās a new character, so I canāt tell if itās good or bad compared to the cast just by looking at it, so Iām less interested in it than marginal changes to a move or two. Sorry.
This one right? I can see how a Q starter makes sense mechanically, but it just feels like itās too close to setsuki, and Gwen is meant to be the alternative formulation of rushdown for the second half of the cast, so it feels like a bit of a flavour fail.
Hmmm what about if she has some form of the J slow down ability on her Q? Then losing to it becomes super bad because you can lose to her K even with DPs on the follow up turn?
Or a new ability where she drains life out them if it hits, so sheās either up or neutral in life? I donāt know Iām just spitballing now.
Also I canāt see how a 25 damage AAA could be broken (actually surprised that 27 seemed like too much during development) so Iād definitely be up for trying to buff it.
Edit: Iām not ignoring @cpatās alternative formulation of gwen, I just donāt have the mental capacity to fully process it right now. On first impression, I like the innate change a lot as itās a lot more interactive, but Iām not so fond of rebuilding everything else she has.
Edit edit: trying to catch up on, and then post from, my phone was a bad idea. I missed @shax suggesting a mini J for 10*, and then I suggested something similar for Q. Sorry guys, will read properly next time.
For what itās worth, I agree that itās probably not her reversal thatās the problem. Donāt have time atm for full thoughts, but I think that the idea had been that Chippās reversal in GG was too good and that any reversal would be useful in her kit with the way they were designing her. Iād need to re-listen to the relevant section to be sure, though.
Edit: Also, agreed with @thehug0naut that starter Q is a flavor mistake, based on their comments and what little I know of her original inspiration.
Gwenās reversal isnāt bad. 0.0 is really quick. Graveās also does 10 damage. (Iād argue its better because shes the only character in the game that can combo into a 0.0 speed attack off throw.) Her card efficiency is bad, but with her draw engine the DP is pretty good.
Sounds like they actually liked the concept/flavor of being able to use fast moves against her but be worried of her queen, of which she has only 4.
@mysticjuicer has Identified that spamming fast attacks at her is indeed possible and strong, part 1 success! You can also freely disrespect her Q as an option most of the time, part 2 fail To fix Gwen as intended(interpreted strictly off of that short discussion), Gwens Q must become a strong reversal. IDK how or if that is the best route.
My post was an elaborate set up entirely so that I can now respond with
chains of ice
Edit: my probably terrible attempt at a pun aside, I think her J is super cool , but it feels odd that she has to play risky to get the super great punish and only then gets the slowdown. Maybe Iām wrong, but having the ability to slow down off of Q and then threaten joker/ability proof D A M A G E seems better than what she has now.
Hereās a Gwen rework with some associated lore Iāve had in mind. Gwen isnāt in dire need of a rework or anything but I figured Iād share it while weāre on the topic. This specifically buffs her Q but in a unique way that doesnāt make it more like Setsuki Q.
Gwen Grayson, Cursed Cryomancer
Lore: After the Dreadlands incident, Gwen contracted Shadow Plague. The strange disease steadily saps her life force and has also afflicted her with an icy touch that quickly freezes any living being she comes into physical contact with. Gwen was forced to give up her lifelong vocation as a healer and now relies on Gloriaās healing abilities just to keep from slipping into darkness.
-Relentless Strikes replaced with Icy Touch: When your [Chill symbol] moves (Frost Slash, Icy Grasp, Chains of Ice, Shadow Slice, Dreadlands Portal) hit or are blocked, the opponent is Chilled making their attacks and throws 1 speed slower next turn.
-2-Attack is Frost Slash: same as regular attacks but deals 4 damage and triggers Icy Touch
-10-Block (Gloriaās Remedy) heals 8 life
-10-Throw is Icy Grasp: same as regular throws but deals 8 damage and triggers Icy Touch
-Chains of Ice 3.4 speed
āChillbane: If you win combat with Chains of Ice, freeze the opponent (they skip all decisions they would make the rest of the turn and skip their next draw phase).
I always thought* this was cool. Ba-dum-tish! But yeah, the ice theme is great for the resident ice queen and it creates a semi-control rush down character which is a unique flavor. I would certainly play the fuck out of it.
Now I want someone to make an edit of the star wars opening that replaces āStar Warsā with āFantasy Strikeā or something. Bonus points if itās animated, you win the internet if itās a video with sound.
Sorry.
To fix Gwen as intended(interpreted strictly off of that short discussion), Gwens Q must become a strong reversal. IDK how or if that is the best route.
, but it feels odd that she has to play risky to get the super great punish and only then gets the slowdown. Maybe Iām wrong, but having the ability to slow down off of Q and then threaten joker/ability proof D A M A G E seems better than what she has now.