Her J. I thought I replied to that comment, sorry if it wasn’t clear.
Maybe not, but if the payoff becomes that much better, it creates much more of a hierarchy between her combat-reveal options.
You do make a good argument that many characters can just take that 6-10 damage on the chin and go right back to keeping her out, though. So as far as giving people a reason to play around it… what if it knocked down? I feel like that’s a better way to increase the payoff than to just make it lead into roughly the same damage as her other options.
What reason do I have to care about being knocked down if I’m just playing reversals against her anyway?
Well, there’s 10*… but you have a point. On the other hand, unless you’re Jaina, how many reversals do you actually have?
Totally random idea, but what if we gave Q some ability where Gwen can trade life for more damage? Maybe something like:
Q: 0.0 spd, 8(+4)dmg, +3 any
Brutal Strikes [During Combat]
Take 2 damage every time you pump this card.
Does that feel rush down-y while giving her access to a more threatening DP?
EDIT: The ability could also have a clause that says “You may pump attack even when it ties with another attack.” This would prevent characters like Grave from completely defusing it by playing their own 0.0 speed DP.
My suggested changed to Gwen’s J.
As for unintended effects on other MUs, this can only be a bonus, imo. But given J’s speed, I think that Zane’s K is the only armored move in the game slow enough to lose to J.
There are a lot of characters that can play more than 4 attacks trade with K. Note: trading with K is equivalent to beating it.
But doesn’t that imply it’s K that should be better? (Could be higher damage, could be 1.0 speed, could be both.)
I’m fine with making K 0.0 speed instead of making Q a starter.
It has to be better speed though. Higher damage K just means “oh shit, I REALLY want to play more DPs against Gwen, because otherwise I’ll take EVEN MORE combo damage.”
I don’t know, you’re probably right. You know the meta far better than me.
I just feel like Gwen is a really good rushdown design in that she is fast and has huge damage off combat wins, but still has to pay a lot of attention to valuation and yomi rather than bullying people with dominant combat options like Setsuki or Zane. I don’t want that to be streamlined away.
It’s okay, we gave Persephone +1 damage throws.
I’m not actually saying K needs to be 0.0 speed. I’m saying that Gwen runs up against a constraint in Yomi by the nature of her design.
- She gets a lot of damage off of attack and throw combat reveals.
- Her opponents are typically fine losing to Q if it means they beat K.
- Her damage off of dodge is okay, but inefficient.
If giving her more efficient payoff off dodge is contrary to her rushdown theme (keep in mind this is exactly what Speed of Fox allows Setsuki to do), then you must give her something that beats a good amount of reversals.
Considering her match-ups against Grave and Troq, it probably needs to be at least 0.9 speed to have any impact on her match-up spread. In fact, I would look at every match-up she has against characters with a single or two-Ace super and make it 0.1 speed faster than the fastest one. At least as a start.
screams in low tier
Okay, K to “just slightly slower than Persephone’s AA”… whatever that is.
Oh god that’s still such a bad trade.
That’s like, worse than “Jaina loses to Menelker bQ and buys her attack back” levels of bad trade. That might be worse than “exchanging a game for credit at EB Games” levels of bad trade!
K to 0.3 speed. is secretly confirmed.
It’s 0.3, so it will clash with Maximum Anarchy too!
No we’re removing Anarchy entirely, remember? Guys? …guys?!
I don’t see as getting frozen out by DPs is Gwen’s problem in the least iota. I think cpat’s fix is by far the best one and the one that is much more effective at getting to the heart of her real issues.