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Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)


#649

+5 life probably helps her more. But I think +1 throw damage might be the better change because it makes her games shorter (she needs fewer combat wins) instead of longer. That improves her early game and doesn’t particularly improve her very strong late-game inevitatibilty.

(Incidentally, I’m assuming this would also mean +1 damage on Wild Ride?)


#650

I tried hard not to respond to this, since I’m trying to de-escalate, but you did quote me specifically :stuck_out_tongue:. For the record, I repeatedly said I wanted it to KD after countering Gloria’s J* because that’s what Arg really wants to counter in the matchup, and because the timing prevents heals. It was the whole reason I started querying the exact timing of when KD is set/taken away. It kind of got to a point where I felt like noone was hearing me say it though.

Some evidence (from the same post you quoted):


Agreed that it’s definitely worth testing. I’ll add it to the wiki shortly.


#651

Neither seriously helps in her worst MU’s. +5 life is something I would shy away from for flavor. She doesn’t survive with a beefy hp pool but through clever gameplay and control. You can’t kill her because she won’t let you. If she loses control or can’t establish it then she dies. Also it kinda doesn’t feet great if an anoying character has too much health and won’t freakin DIE already!

+1 throw damage might shave an average one combat win off what she needs to kill per game. She has a long and slow game plan, but it often feels a bit too long. It also helps in more grindy matches or when her hand just isn’t coming together despite some decent vortexes. Basically a small nudge to consistency overall. It is a very bland change so I understand if it’s put on the back burner until other things are considered.

Her MU with BBB is already helped a bit by the junkshot change. Now she can beat it with a few things rather than almost nothing.


#652

Do you think Wild Ride should get +1 too?


#653

Yes, that was my intention. Wild Ride is useful as her second fastest throw sometimes. She usually just wins by throwing blodges more than throw clashes thanks to the threat of recurring fast throws. Wild Ride being +2 in relation to normal throws is a big part of it’s identity to me.


#654

I usually end up siding with @mysticjuicer that +1 damage to an option on its own probably isn’t worth it, but maybe here because it also includes Wild Ride, and because her game plan takes a while it would actually matter.

Right now I actually prefer it to +5HP which surprises me, but I think it’s fairly important that her opponent knows she dies fairly quickly when they break her control.


Also, I figured this might be a good place to ask, what’s your opinion of the Rook match-up? Imo I always felt it was super bad for Rook but because she doesn’t tend to see play much it’s never flagged up in these discussions.


#655

Sounds good then. Perse +1 dmg normal throws and +1 dmg K as consensus. Lum throws +1 pump as under consideration.

I think special blocks reverting to normal blocks when countered is pretty consensus? And the Jackpot rework hasn’t had many comments either way, but it significantly helps the DeGrey mu so I think it has earned under consideration status? Here it is again for reference:

Jackpot doesn’t draw on use and reads: “The opponent reveals 2 cards from their hand at random. For each Ace, they take 5 damage and you draw a card. For each Joker, you take 2 damage.”


#656

Short answer before bed: mostly even. 100 hp is a lot to go through for perse and he has some good buttons with no huge weakness to exploit. Persephone’s damage is at “Arg without innate” levels until she gets aces+ vortex, or card hungry burst combo.


#657

Will get both these added today. Is Lum’s 10-throw Extra Juice also to get +1 pump? If not his max throw damage is still 22 (you were worried about burst damage), but it might be a flavour fail to have extra juice not get the “extra juice”

I think so, at least the only comment ever made was that people didn’t imagine the word of god being overturned. Its so much better for :argagarg::rook: that it’s nearly a no brainer just for that. Without a change like this :rook: is still facing an truly heinous match-up.

It also probably makes :rook::grave: a shade closer to 5-5, gives him a slight HP buff vs :persephone: (probably fine if the match is mostly even) and a small buff vs :setsuki: (she’ll probably still want to counter 3* if she can but now he’ll keep it in hand for later)

I like this. Making his secondary ability better also means that :argagarg: has more of a decision to make about what to counter (see also “Rook 3* deals 10 damage” as an alternative to changing how special blocks interact with counters).

Ideally, to fully riff off slot machines (FSFG anyone?) we would want 3 cards flipped. I’m not sure that the payoff could be structured correctly to fit the likelihood of hitting, but I like the idea of it.


#658

Yeah. Extra Juice is best in the Arg mu so if we’re trying to help Lum-Arg by giving him +1 throw pump Extra Juice should for sure get it too.


#659

Yomi Lum seems to be more interested in Pandante/Poker than slot machines. Two cards makes it like a two card Poker hand, and I like the flavor of Lum being rewarded for finding “pocket Aces”.

It’s kinda funny to think about how far the game has come. I’m pretty sure the old aphotix mu chart (which was used as the standard for a long time, though many players knew it was quite inaccurate) listed Rook-Arg as 6-4 Rook favor.


#660

Good point! I like that flavour a bunch. Should it be under consideration or consensus? Didn’t see much comment either way.

LOL that chart was probably the most wrong about this match-up. It’s diabolical.

Though I kind of get the confusion, it took @FraaOrolo murdering me in winners and grand finals of the MSS kick off tournament (and @mysticjuicer’s sadness while commentating) to make me see it for what it is.


#661

Hmm. I think it’s worthy of consensus status but maybe wait for at least one more person supporting. It helps most vs. DeGrey and makes Arg have to think about counter usage more which is good, but it does affect a lot of mus in subtle ways (punishes Ace-heavy strategies more than current Jackpot). I think @mysticjuicer expressed indifference/reservations about the Jackpot rework?


#662

Another funny thing I noticed is that the matchup chart shown in the Yomi and Game Balance article linked earlier claims that Jaina vs Geiger is dead even… :laughing:

I like it, but even if we’re hesitant to label it as consensus it should probably still go under consideration.


#663

Hang on, don’t BBB’s normals change to 1.0 speed at Long Range? Removing Troq armor from both sides of Jack might not give Troq enough outs, though obviously some testing would be required. Personally, I’ve always thought that Troq Armor should only affect the slow side (Bull Charge) if it stays, so there’s more reason to combat-reveal both sides instead of just Bull Rush every time.


#664

I would list them under consideration. A lot of “consensus” changes have been added in the past couple of days, whereas the ones that were added to the Balance Bureau thread when it was created were just the most conservative, widely and even tacitly accepted ones like Gold Burst ending TD. I’d be worried about moving too much, too fast.


#665

Giving BBB incentives to combat-reveal normals at range (to beat anti-Q Js from Troq) is a slight nerf to Troq in the MU, I think. Troq still has J, Q, AA, Joker to beat Q, but he now only has Q to beat normals (and block). More testing might be necessary, since Troq’s blocks go away when they’re used, but from pure theory-crafting I think this is a slight nerf, not a big one.


#666

I guess you’re the Troq expert, not me! I only brought it up because of this part of the Game Balance and Yomi article:

At one point, Troq (a grappler) had way too much trouble getting in. By giving him a new property called “Troq Armor” on his Jack which acts like “super armor” in a fighting game, it gave him one more answer to being at range. It turns out this makes a big difference and helps that match a ton.


#667

The really key part of J is it being 2.2, in that MU, because the grapplers need answers to normals in neutral, and Q at range. Currently, Troq BBB is a volatile 5-5. Improving the rest of the cast’s MUs against Troq means that his MU against BBB will probably be a bit worse. I’m hopeful it wouldn’t be awful.


#668

Well a huge draw of Starcraft is not the variety of races, considering they only have three. Even so, the answer would be… yes? I dunno, I’ve never played Starcraft.

A huge part of the draw in Yomi (for me) is the way the cast all has strengths and weaknesses against each other and that between-game counterpicking pulls all of that into an extra game. If everyone was just 5-5 against each other then that part of the game is gone and it’s a worse game to me. I would much rather make the counterpick carousel more dynamic than just eliminate it altogether and replace it with a big fat “who-cares”. There is also the feeling when you win a unfavorable matchup, which is pretty great IMO.

If Yomi were a game where tournaments were structured with whomever wins one game wins then I’d say yes, 5-5s all around would be better. But with BO5 and 7 being the standard I like it imbalanced. I WANT a carousel. I guess that’s just me though. shrug