Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)

Two Truths isn’t a reliable way to get things back in hand, especially if it’s a powerful ability your opponent doesn’t want you to have again. I don’t think this card is too good, and it will need playtesting before further action.

Now to beat a dead horse with rewording

4* Filibuster [During Combat]
You may discard a card to make this block immune to mixup normals and block damage. This doesn’t return to hand or draw from blocking

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Oh whoops. 0 CP.

I really want his throw damage to be increased.

That change was subtle enough it took a moment to see it, but you’re right that it’s better. Good call on Two Truth’s lack of reliability, too. I’ll add it as a change under consideration. Does anyone think I should move “AA to 1.0 speed” from consensus to under consideration as well, or should I leave it there?

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Definitely move AA to consideration. This Filibuster change was suggested as a replacement for it after all.

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Yeah it usually devolves into a late game of AA/Throw/Dodge, but his throws are generally expensive or weak. (Qs or its just like single A.)

This might usually add 6 or 7 damage to his late game throws with J or 6 attack. You might get the rare Throw Q Q, but that’s both very expensive and also very blue burstable. (37 damage 7 cards.)

I do however see Throw Q A being uncommon at 33 damage for 5 cards.

If this is too much I think 6 damage or EVEN lower throws are fine. Making it a strong late game tool. Afterall its generally better to land normals into blocks than throws. K is his best throw tool early.

Alright, that’s done! Someone who knows Quince better can improve on the description of why that change was suggested if they like, but that’s how I understood the discussion around it.

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Thanks dude, was out to the cinema earlier so hadn’t had a chance to make the change yet. I’ll maybe edit some of the discussion but appreciate others making use of the wiki :smile:

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Just want to briefly mention that in my game with @Rinzler just a few minutes ago, my Q>AA combo did 44 damage. DeGrey definitely has no need for Moral High Ground damage on Final Arbiter imo.

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Why don’t I quadruple check it’s dead

4* Filibuster [During Combat]
This block doesn’t return to hand or draw from blocking. Discard a card to make this immune to mixup normals and block damage.

The reason for rearranging the order is simply so that it is clear that you always discard it, even if you don’t trigger the ability. I also deleted the “you may” because DeGrey’s 7* is worded without it.

We are fine with Quince losing one of his normal blocks right?

Also since this is V3 and we just fixed Rook special blocks, we need to decide how this one acts when countered and explicitly put it on the card. Personally I’m for all special blocks reverting to normal blocks, even this one. But since getting rid of it on use seems super important I thought I’d check.

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Just curious, but how much MHG damage were you getting in that instance? Edit: thanks Hobusu, I should have just done some simple math * derp*

Did the math: Pilebunker is 14, Final Arbiter is 20, so the remaining 10 damage came from Moral High Ground adding 5 twice. I think 39 from only one MHG trigger would have been plenty! :smile:

Removing MHG from AA also results in Q>6>J doing the same damage as Q>AA if MHG is at 6 damage, which I think is interesting. More generally, the change reduces his dependence on Aces and makes his non-Ace combo cards more valuable because they don’t have to compete with Final Arbiter as much, which seems like a good thing.

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-I’m a fan of buffing Gloria’s Remedy like this. Seems pretty consensus.

-Does Chillbane as you have it worded here prevent Hex of Murkwood at End of Turn? I agree that the Chains of Ice - Crash Bomb interaction is feel-bad but I only think it’s worth changing the wording if we’re sure it doesn’t add any confusing interactions or make the ability too wordy. After all, this is intended to change just one interaction in one mu.

-Dreadlands Portal → 25 damage is serviceable but I’m going to continue to push for giving it KD. It is a “Portal” after all so it makes a lot of flavor sense for it to provide Gwen with advantage time the next turn. Giving it KD also ensures Gwen’s endgame won’t consist of dodge/super throw mixup over and over again, since she’s much more likely to try a mixup normal / dodge instead if she gets KD, which feels much more rushdowny. After it gets KD, if we test and find it’s still weak, I could see 24 damage + KD working fine.

I think I saw someone questioning how useful KD was for Gwen. Let me assure you that Gwen can be devastating vs. a KD’d opponent - she has x.0 normals and an anti-block innate ability. I feel like people are really forgetting how good x.0 normals are. Regarding reversals, of course they’re good against Gwen as they should be against a rushdown char, but the opponent isn’t going to have infinite reversals. The characters that do have them struggle in other ways to compensate (like Jaina/Mene).

~~

Rook 9-throw → 9-attack. Dear god yes I need this in my life, this should be consensus. You’re brilliant @mysticjuicer. And by the way, I love you just as much no matter which character you play (yes, even the bullshit beast himself). My love is not conditional on you playing Rook like it seems to be for some of these folks :stuck_out_tongue:

~~

I really want to like this Filibuster idea since it helps vs. Geiger, and I think it’s worth considering/testing for that reason alone, but let me voice my concerns: it seems clunky as hell any way I look at it. For one, giving Quince another ability makes him have the most abilities of any char in the game (tied with Val and Troq, but Troq is losing J ability and Val’s abilities are all simple and short). For another, Quince’s Flagstone Tax already indirectly allows him to discourage the opponent from attacking him while he’s KD in a way that feels just meaningful enough in most mus while still leaving KD as a built-in weakness. Unfortunately, it just happens that Geiger and Zane have extremely crazy things on KD vs. him that Tax isn’t enough to offset.

I do think this Filibuster idea is worth testing, but I’m not crazy about it. Then again, you’ve also shaken my confidence that 1.0 AA is a good change. You mentioned being concerned about 1.0 AA triggering Positive Spin too easily, what if it dealt no block damage like Lum’s Q? Just an idea. Honestly, I’m now leaning toward not touching Quince at all and just letting Zane/Geiger nerfs make his life a bit easier.

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Maybe this wording would be better:

J* Chillbane [During Combat]
When you hit with Chains of Ice, freeze the opponent (they skip all decisions they would make the rest of the turn and cannot trigger any abilities this combat). Next turn, their attacks and throws are 2 speed slower.

Crash Bomb would be the the only move in the game affected by the added text, unless BBB decides to Overdrive (and then Long Arm) on a turn he’s slowed down by J* (or other slow effect in 2v2 I presume), but this seems like probably an unlikely play? (I don’t know I don’t play BBB)

Me neither tbh, the cost seems super misaligned from the power of the mix-up defense. How about if the mix-up defense was speed gated?

4* Filibuster [During Combat]
Discard this block to prevent block damage and beat mix-up normals faster than 3.0 speed.

This way it specifically gives him an option for meaty/time spiral defense but leaves everyone else* largely unnaffected. It also means most of the time he can just use it as a normal block, but he has to dump it when he needs the ability. I’d say he should still draw a replacement card from blocking, because that’s good flavour for a canonical stalling tactic.

* Note: This move also prevents (reworked) BBB setting range with his normals and beats both mix-up 3 and Q at range so we’d potentially need to watch that match-up. I have no idea how it plays right now.

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One thing I’d just like to remind everyone of is that every change/new ability should be made with new player accessibility in mind. I know that balancing should be for high level play, but we should try not to make the game any more impenetrable than it already is.

So any time we’re adding or modifying abiltiies, we should aim to make it so clear it doesn’t need an FAQ, and even if it does, it’s not a long one.

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Agreed, seems very consensus at this point. Personally, I can’t recall anyone saying it was a bad idea.

This looks way better. Much more targeted in what it can affect, and it reads better too (the word order on the previous take was something I’d planned to fix as soon as possible).

I like this idea too; it’s definitely worth testing at the very least.

Yeah, it’s probably not that good an idea. I doubt it’s all that useful for him for the cost, and you’re right that it’s clunky and giving him yet another ability when his existing ones are complicated enough that players who haven’t seen him before can have a hard time parsing them mid-game (as evidenced by my friend getting a slight headache and generally being confused when I randomed into Quince during a casual set last night).

I would agree with you on this, but he had a certain energy and enthusiasm before he became known to some as mystictraitor that I’d love to see again, especially now that he’s become a better player. Can you imagine a mysticjuicer who gets to play the character he truly loves and has the knowledge and skill of mystictraitor? :wink:

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Just as a quick aside: I wonder how much of my skill as mystictraitor comes down to how much easier it is to play Troq. I would be surprised if my success rate with current Rook would be all that much higher than what it was when I played him, to be honest.

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True, I wouldn’t expect that much improvement if you tried playing 2nd Edition Rook again (though maybe he can still be useful as a counterpick at the end of a set sometimes, idk). But it looks like just a few tweaks to his special blocks and giving him a 9-attack would make him good enough to be worth using over Troq at least some of the time, right? Besides, I do think you’ve improved a lot since you started doing Yomi commentary, even if that improvement would be hard to see when playing low-tier characters.

Look, I just want you to play Rook more, OK?! :laughing:

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You did improve along your career, even playing rook, and you’ve improved further playing Troq. Check your elo, you’ll see.

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How dare you bring facts into this, you monster. :heart:

edit: I wrote out a bunch of other stuff, but it’s off-topic, and stuff I’ve already said about Rook and what tier he’s in, and what kind of player I am, the intersection of those things, etc etc. Maybe another time in another thread, or in a video or something.

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I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and come up with an idea for a Jaina “overhaul” that I quite like. It keeps a lot of her deck the same, while adressing the issues we’ve discussed in this thread with her gameplan, cards (especially J) and abilities. It hasn’t been playtested, so it’s obviously a starting point at best, but I’m curious to hear what people think.

As previously discussed, the goal was to make her a hybrid of a zoner/footsies character like Grave, and a rushdown character - her innate was meant to achieve this by giving her a strong reward and card flow for going on the offensive, while simultaneously rewarding the opponent for reading her right. Meanwhile her abilities are intended to ensure the opponent can’t be safe just by turtling up -and to provide the distorted symmetry with Grave that I’m so fond of.

Jaina Stormborne
Phoenix Archer

Summary

90 HP
5 CP

Normal throws: 2 CP, x.6 speed, 7 damage & KD
Normal attacks: 1 CP, x.6 speed, x damage, red suits inflict x-1 block damage

Innate:

Unstable Power: When you deal damage or block damage with an attack, the next turn if you combat-reveal an attack and hit your opponent with it, search your deck or discard pile for a red face card. If you combat-reveal an attack and do not hit your opponent with it, take 5 damage.

Card ranks:

2: A/D
3: A/D
4: A/D
5: A/D
6: A/B
*7: B/T
8: B/T
9: B/Knee Bash, Throw, +Any, +Any, 8.6 speed, 7+5+5 damage, Can’t Combo
*10: B/T

J: * Charged Shot, Attack, 5.0 speed, 9 (8) damage, 2 CP starter
Flame Arrow, Attack, 2.4 speed, 7 (6) damage, 1 CP ender

Q: Dragonheart, Attack, +any, 0.2 speed, 9+5 (2) damage, 3 CP ender
K: Crossfire Kick, Attack, +K+K+K, 6+7+7+7 (3) damage, 2 CP linker
A:
A Red Dragon, Attack, +A+A+A, 0.8 speed, 10+9(2) damage, Can’t Combo
AA Letter J, Attack, 0.2 speed, 18(4) damage, 2 cp Ender

*7: Smoldering Embers -[Combat Reveal] If the opponent dodges while this card is in your discard pile, they take two damage. You can’t power up with this card. (It’s too hot.)

*10: Burning Vigor - [Draw] Discard this card and take 5 damage to draw 3 cards.

*J: Full Charge [During Combat] Charged Shot beats normal blocks.

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