Yeah. Extra Juice is best in the Arg mu so if we’re trying to help Lum-Arg by giving him +1 throw pump Extra Juice should for sure get it too.
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Yomi Lum seems to be more interested in Pandante/Poker than slot machines. Two cards makes it like a two card Poker hand, and I like the flavor of Lum being rewarded for finding “pocket Aces”.
It’s kinda funny to think about how far the game has come. I’m pretty sure the old aphotix mu chart (which was used as the standard for a long time, though many players knew it was quite inaccurate) listed Rook-Arg as 6-4 Rook favor.
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Good point! I like that flavour a bunch. Should it be under consideration or consensus? Didn’t see much comment either way.
LOL that chart was probably the most wrong about this match-up. It’s diabolical.
Though I kind of get the confusion, it took @FraaOrolo murdering me in winners and grand finals of the MSS kick off tournament (and @mysticjuicer’s sadness while commentating) to make me see it for what it is.
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Hmm. I think it’s worthy of consensus status but maybe wait for at least one more person supporting. It helps most vs. DeGrey and makes Arg have to think about counter usage more which is good, but it does affect a lot of mus in subtle ways (punishes Ace-heavy strategies more than current Jackpot). I think @mysticjuicer expressed indifference/reservations about the Jackpot rework?
Another funny thing I noticed is that the matchup chart shown in the Yomi and Game Balance article linked earlier claims that Jaina vs Geiger is dead even… 
I like it, but even if we’re hesitant to label it as consensus it should probably still go under consideration.
Hang on, don’t BBB’s normals change to 1.0 speed at Long Range? Removing Troq armor from both sides of Jack might not give Troq enough outs, though obviously some testing would be required. Personally, I’ve always thought that Troq Armor should only affect the slow side (Bull Charge) if it stays, so there’s more reason to combat-reveal both sides instead of just Bull Rush every time.
I would list them under consideration. A lot of “consensus” changes have been added in the past couple of days, whereas the ones that were added to the Balance Bureau thread when it was created were just the most conservative, widely and even tacitly accepted ones like Gold Burst ending TD. I’d be worried about moving too much, too fast.
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Giving BBB incentives to combat-reveal normals at range (to beat anti-Q Js from Troq) is a slight nerf to Troq in the MU, I think. Troq still has J, Q, AA, Joker to beat Q, but he now only has Q to beat normals (and block). More testing might be necessary, since Troq’s blocks go away when they’re used, but from pure theory-crafting I think this is a slight nerf, not a big one.
I guess you’re the Troq expert, not me! I only brought it up because of this part of the Game Balance and Yomi article:
At one point, Troq (a grappler) had way too much trouble getting in. By giving him a new property called “Troq Armor” on his Jack which acts like “super armor” in a fighting game, it gave him one more answer to being at range. It turns out this makes a big difference and helps that match a ton.
The really key part of J is it being 2.2, in that MU, because the grapplers need answers to normals in neutral, and Q at range. Currently, Troq BBB is a volatile 5-5. Improving the rest of the cast’s MUs against Troq means that his MU against BBB will probably be a bit worse. I’m hopeful it wouldn’t be awful.
Well a huge draw of Starcraft is not the variety of races, considering they only have three. Even so, the answer would be… yes? I dunno, I’ve never played Starcraft.
A huge part of the draw in Yomi (for me) is the way the cast all has strengths and weaknesses against each other and that between-game counterpicking pulls all of that into an extra game. If everyone was just 5-5 against each other then that part of the game is gone and it’s a worse game to me. I would much rather make the counterpick carousel more dynamic than just eliminate it altogether and replace it with a big fat “who-cares”. There is also the feeling when you win a unfavorable matchup, which is pretty great IMO.
If Yomi were a game where tournaments were structured with whomever wins one game wins then I’d say yes, 5-5s all around would be better. But with BO5 and 7 being the standard I like it imbalanced. I WANT a carousel. I guess that’s just me though. shrug
Fair enough. I don’t feel the same way you do about counter-picking, but there’s no way we get to exactly 5-5 for 20 characters anyway, so counter-picking isn’t going anywhere. The hopeful result of all this is that some of the worst MUs in the game become less bad, and the strongest characters in the game are more in line with the rest of the cast, which should result in the world you want (“counterpicking still exists, but there are more options for what to counterpick with because there are less 7-3 MUs in general.”)
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Because player skill and perception are imperfect, counter picks would still exist in a true 5-5 game. This MU is even but you hate it and always do worse then the spread? Counter. Also “even” yet volitile or extreme familiarity can add variance to the MU spread of two particular players.
Granted it’s not as dramatic.
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Yeah, I don’t know. Out of combat damage is scary, and a lot of the cast want/need Aces against Lum in the end-game. I guess this change makes it so that you have higher odds of getting some damage, and then a smaller chance to deal more damage than the current version… I don’t know. I’m not sure it helps more vs Arg and DeGrey than it helps in other match-ups, and I know so little about Lum’s good MUs that I just stayed out of it.
Good, because this goal I can totally get behind (it’s what I thought this was all aboot!).
Incidentally, this is why I don’t like tournaments that don’t allow me my full rainbow of CP options (like stables and 19XX)
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Yeah, special blocks only getting discarded when their ability actually activates (and therefore returning to hand when countered) is a nice quality of life change for a character who could really use it. I’m not positive that it makes the MU even, but it certainly doesn’t hurt it.
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Interesting! I didn’t realize that was your reservation about the 19XX format.
Especially since having a special block countered would presumably let Rook draw a card in addition to returning it to hand, so he gets a sort of consolation prize if he doesn’t get damage and/or knockdown from playing one. Doesn’t that mean that Arg countering a special block lets Rook draw two cards and return the block to hand? Special blocks so OP! 
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Well I mean, that and anything that makes Setsuki top-tier hurts my soul.
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drake looking away, displeased: dodges > blocks > special blocks
drake pointing, smiling in agreement: dodges > special blocks > blocks
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