From prior experience with coaching, I find I am very bad at receiving it live, especially in a situation where I am already feeling tilted. Hence why I was going to watch commentary. I’ll see if I can find some videos where you’ve commentated Setsuki play and then consider talking to you about some live stuff.
This is almost certainly true. Though she is so tilting that I can’t really blame anyone for missing opportunities to take advantage.
Lately I don’t worry about her as much, mostly because I switch to Grave and option-select her attack/throw bullshit.
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I just wanted to say, even if nothing comes of it, this discussion on Setsuki has at least been very cathartic. 
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One thing has definitely arisen - I now need to change my bureau posts. I have Zane written up as the most divisive character 
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How about next time you commentate a Fivec match, I will co-comm with you if I am around.
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Nothing but respect for my President.
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Wow this thread is getting spicy #fucksetsuki
I think Setsuki could use a very very slight damage nerf but honestly she is in a good spot. Or maybe just don’t allow her to power up for nothing (force her to fetch at least one ace)? In any case the character at its core is just irritating to fight against and that requires a complete overhaul for that to change.
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The Setsuki tangent ran quite long so I wanted to make sure ideas didn’t get lost:
Consensus changes
-Setsuki - small damage nerf (I like AA 15 dmg so we’re only changing one card)
Changes under consideration
-Lum Jackpot doesn’t draw on use and reads: The opponent reveals 2 cards from their hand at random. For each Ace, they take 5 damage and you draw a card. For each Joker, you take 2 damage. (definitely helps vs. DeGrey, would help vs. Arg if his counter was weaker)
-Arg Counter limited to once per turn (does this hurt Arg vs. Gloria too much?)
-Menelker Slow J 10+10 damage, +1 Jack, 2CP Starter (I think this helps vs. grapplers/Zane/Oni/DeGrey without significantly affecting other mus)
-Gwen Dreadlands Portal buff (I’d rather give it KD than just buff the damage, to encourage it being used as a way to open up her Plan A rushdown rather than creating a Plan B dodge/Super throw mixup. But the Tickle could use some kind of buff for sure)
-Ven Jack gains ability Assassin’s Toolbox: Discard this to search your deck (not discard pile) for a non-Joker card.
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J imo is Vendettas second best face card. Its his main source of damage. Much more than Q.
- Dunno about the Jackpot buff.
- Don’t think I like Arg counter being once per turn.
- Menelker change is only a difference of 2 damage most of the time, so I don’t really feel it.
- I defer to Niijima on Ven. If he thinks no change is fine, I’m inclined to agree he knows best.
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What problem is this clause attempting to address? Is this just so that if Lum has more than 1 PF in hand he can be guaranteed to play at least one?
EDIT: For the record I do think this change would be a small but substantial harm to Arg in the Gloria MU, so personally I don’t think this is a great change.
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Wow so many more posts than i originally noticed. Nice!!
Yeah. Basically, not sure if more damage off Lum throws are the answer or if they will have a more negative effect on his winning MUs.
The Arg counter change is especially noticeable in the Arg-Lum matchup if the proposed Jackpot change happens as well.
Arg almost always has at least one Ace in hand vs. Lum and it is often known/recurring. This makes the tweaked Jackpot more threatening to him than most chars. So in practice, Lum play in the mu would consist of stockpiling Jackpots and PFs and playing as many abilities as possible in a single turn. Arg’s counter would still play a role in the mu, but if Lum is patient he could still get value out of his abilities.
It also makes for interesting interactions in some other matchups. Vs. Menelker for example, if Mene tries to banish something and Arg counters it, it actually affects each player’s thinking going into combat because Arg cannot counter Bonecracker during combat that turn. This is the kind of interactivity I wish Arg’s counter had more of.
Unfortunately, it makes the Gloria matchup worse so I agree with you that I think we have to scrap it. If anyone has another counter rework idea though I’d love to hear it!
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Hmmm. I actually like this a lot, and I like that this change would also help Midori against Arg by letting him get into DF more easily.
For now we can probably keep this idea in mind as a possibility. (Though if Arg is getting a once-per-turn limit maybe we should excuse the “cards played from hand go to the bottom of the deck” clause? Just a random thought.) If Arg gets something useful against Gloria in V3 it might outweigh the additional advantage Gloria gets from this change to Arg’s counter.
EDIT: This might actually also hurt Arg substantially in the Valerie MU too, now that I think about it more, but so few players have played Valerie while I’ve been active that I can’t speak with a ton of confidence about the MU.
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The “abilities played from hand go to the bottom of the deck” is actually a pretty clever little inclusion in the current version of the ability in that it can help Arg in the Gloria matchup but nerfs the counter in most other matchups.
The reason for this is that it makes Crash & Flow really good for countering 10h, since if it went to discard instead of deck Gloria could quickly recur it with Healing Touch and use it again. Oh and the same fact applies to Perse’s 10 as well.
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As I recall, that’s precisely the reason for that clause being there, right?
Oh you are totally correct. I cannot believe that slipped my mind!
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