Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)

Of course it’s a nerf, but as Nejima-san said, it’s a nerf to her card flow, to make playing against her less RPS-like and playing as her involve more decision-making. It’s not about the nerf so much as quality of life and depth of gameplay. You’ll probably have to buff her damage to compensate but that comes after.

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I know. I’m saying “if you put any nerf in front of me, I am incapable of saying whether it is a fair and good nerf to the character because she needs it, or whether I just hate her so much I will take any chance to make her bad.” I’ll bow out of any Setsuki discussion now, because I’m not actually helping at all.

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Sorry it took me a long time to figure out how to quote posts on this bad forum hosting software.

Yes it’s very necessary to have her 7* ability. I think people have a tendency to overestimate how much reliable damage an average Setsuki hand really has, because they only remember the times where they get blown up by throw-6-K++ for 23 or Q+±6-K for 20.

This is tough to analyze. I would say that Setsukis don’t really use Bag of Tricks a lot in the first place, except in specific matchups or if you happen to have it. That’s because Setsuki’s opponents don’t tend to throw her very often, so what happens it that if her opponents do throw her, it is with a 7-throw, and Setsukis need to throw with their 7s more often than not because they need to beat opposing throws sometimes. If 7* were to not recur other 7s, it would affect her endgame the most, and it would actually become quite unreliable, whereas right now she is pretty stable. Interesting change but it’s hard to say one way or the other without thinking about it more.

I would just like to say if you’re picking up 7QK as Setsuki and your opponent has more than 25hp left, chances are you aren’t making the right decision.

This seems alright. I would’ve even suggested moving it to her T and move Smoke Bomb to her 9. I think this is one of those changes that is harder to gauge without playtesting though, so I cannot comment on how good or bad this change would be. I am still in favor of just nerfing her damage a bit and see how she plays out. There’s no need for kneejerk reactions without seeing if what we have now is fine, which I think it might be.

This seems very unhealthy at first glance. It means she gets pairs and trips for Aces more often, and Aces are the only awful threat Setsuki has in terms of damage. Her plan then becomes “collect two Aces and hit with them every other turn.” Whether she becomes better or worse is a different question that is difficult to answer without playing, but she definitely becomes more unhealthy of a character with this change because she either becomes too strong with her Ace flow or too weak because she has too many awkward hands.

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SOTF drawing 7 cards would likely be too big a nerf.

I like the idea behind the second change, because I think her insulation from playing into jokers is one of her big sticking points as a boring character. However, if you think about it, this only delays SOTF by a turn. If she dumps her hand into a joker and doesn’t draw up, then next combat she only has one card, so unless she blocks, she is guaranteed to get SOTF at the end of THAT turn. This is either not enough of a punishment, because she gets SOTF anyway, or this is too much of a punishment, because we are condemning an (officially) 70 HP character to more or less one combat turn per game where she will have only one card to play.

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Well, I know it only delays SOTF by a turn, but if that means a likely combat loss or being forced to block and be stuck the next turn as well… the idea was, that will be a pretty severe punishment that will make her think twice about dumping her hand into facedowns.

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I just remembered this from the Yomi translations topic:

i no longer support moving bag of tricks off of 7

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On second thought, I don’t see how this isn’t a major buff. She would have insane amounts of damage in her hand, and the awkward hand problem is solved by doing the thing that Setsukis never do: block for a turn, and then she can trigger SoTF in two turns instead of one.

No I don’t think this is the right change either. This doesn’t sound like a fun interaction for Setsuki to deal with, because if she combos into a Joker, suddenly she has to survive a combat with only one card in hand? No thanks.

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My answer to 7 would be, on a turn in which she uses 7 she draws one less card, that would be in a world where my other suggested change does not happen. This would reduce the amount of times that setsuki draws a reliable non-7 throw outside of the cards she puts on top so she would have to either sacrifice the loop if she wanted to throw or not throw to preserve the loop.

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I agree that that particular change is not the best, but I do want to point out that there is no character in Yomi for whom playing into a joker is a fun interaction. :laughing: I think it would be healthy if Setsuki had to be at least a little more mindful of whether or not the facedown is real.

I have to join with @mysticjuicer, @Niijima-san and others in saying I also loathe Setsuki. It really does suck to not be able to yomi, while playing yomi.

One thing that always bugged me about Setsuki’s 7* was that she can recur AA while Perse’s Dominance and Quince’s Two Truths are restricted to differing ranks. Two Truths even excludes aces.

Any thoughts on how restricting to one card of each rank, or excluding aces would play out?

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Setsuki cares about running into Jokers unnecessarily when it puts good/efficient options in her opponent’s hand. She does have to evaluate whether the lack of follow-up is worth giving up an opportunity to SotF on the next turn. It just ends up being that she cares much less about that sort of thing compared to other characters.

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Thank you for well-reasoned posts!

I would like to reiterate at this point that I personally think Setsuki is broadly fine as is. But I do understand the concerns of those who think her card flow and fast options make playing against her into too much of a game of 50/50s, and dislike that she has no incentive not to dump her hand on any combat win, even into a joker.

The intent of the changes was to give her a reason to respect jokers, and to make Speed of the Fox trigger less often so it becomes more of “advantage time” and a reset once she’s played her hand down to nothing, instead of something she can reliably trigger two or more turns in a row. That will force her to make more decisions about what to play and how much to commit rather than dump as much as she can at every opportunity.

Can you (or anyone else) think of better ways to accomplish those things, that don’t require her deck or play style to change completely?

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Excluding aces is worth considering. I’m not sure it’s a helpful change but it might be - and I am the sort of player who likes when similar abilities work in similar ways. It provides structure, and having fewer finicky differences to keep track of makes the design more elegant -and the game easier to learn. (Same as Rook’s special blocks returning on Block/Block).

That is 100% valid. I suppose from my perspective, there are three reasons one might choose not to play into a facedown in Yomi:

  1. You will waste cards from your own hand that you may or may not be able to get back.
  2. You will leave yourself on a low hand.
  3. You will give your opponent two more cards.

To me, it seems like 1 and 2 are generally much more important factors than 3. Sure, it sucks to give your opponent cards, but it doesn’t suck NEARLY as much as wasting that triple ace super or failing to KO when you have only a card or two left in hand.

Since Setsuki generally doesn’t have to be concerned with 1 or 2, it feels like she just has LESS of a relationship with facedowns rather than a DIFFERENT relationship, if that makes sense. Like, most characters need to take all 3 points into consideration, but Setsuki largely only has to think about number 3. She isn’t thinking about Jokers differently than other characters; she’s just thinking about them less. And since number 3 is a much smaller deterrent than 1 or 2, she ends up playing into facedowns more often and with less worry than other characters.

I realize that you likely were aware of all this, but I just wanted to clarify my thoughts about Setsuki and jokers.

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She picks up 7QK instead of 7AA/QAA. Takes her a little more time to do loop things but it still largely happens. Maybe this is a fine nerf though. I wouldn’t outright reject it like I have some other suggestions that have been made.

I’m probably in the minority on this, but I don’t like dumping high damage stuff into my opponent’s facedowns if I know I can win combat next turn, especially if that high damage stuff is Aces. I will often pass if I think I have a high percentage chance of winning combat the next turn.

I also think that Setsuki is fine where she is (though I think a small damage nerf is probably good). I also think that a largely underdeveloped skill in most players today is the ability to read a hand, and even though Setsuki has a tendency to change that hand frequently, it only becomes easier as the game progresses when you are able to see the frequency of certain cards in the discard, and combining that with ways to dump a hand with x cards. I think a player who has generally proven that he is good at this skill (although he does not play the game anymore) is @MadKing. I also think that players are exceptionally bad at punishing Setsuki hands that cannot be immediately dumped, which is a skill that is mandatory to having continued success against her. I don’t know if there are any VODs out there, but watch me commentate a @Fivec game and tell you exactly what is in his hand or what he is thinking by midgame, or there are a couple old matches out there (not sure if they were recorded or not) where I beat him handily in the Setsuki mirror because he played the Plan A Setsuki game and I punished it.

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I really hope someone can find recordings of those games, that’s something I’d like to see!

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If you have links I would really appreciate it. Are they on Raz’s YouTube channel, mostly?

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Admittedly I did lose 0-4 to him in an old Summer Smash with Zane, but that was largely due to my own incompetence with not landing a single Maximum Anarchy in four games and whiffing maybe five or six of them, but I think I am 8-1 vs. Fivec in the Setsuki mirror in tournament.

I have never set up my own stream so I don’t have any idea where they may or may not be, and also these would be in the hands of other streamers from two or three years ago (think maybe Leontes, Mad King?). If you’d like, I can coach you (and anyone else) in anti-Setsuki tech. It’s probably best if we are playing each other so you can know exactly what I am thinking and I can help you understand why you should make the moves you make.

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From prior experience with coaching, I find I am very bad at receiving it live, especially in a situation where I am already feeling tilted. Hence why I was going to watch commentary. I’ll see if I can find some videos where you’ve commentated Setsuki play and then consider talking to you about some live stuff.

This is almost certainly true. Though she is so tilting that I can’t really blame anyone for missing opportunities to take advantage.

Lately I don’t worry about her as much, mostly because I switch to Grave and option-select her attack/throw bullshit.

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