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What characters are good at teaching specific things

This is inspired from my learning under @Legion and @migohunter at Yomi. Without them I wouldn’t be as knowledgeable as I am at the game.

How to Throw:

Throwing is something you do, but when/how is important. It can take a lot of patience and normally is the riskiest of the Yomi triangle.

:rook:
Rook IMO is the best character to learn to throw with. His attack speeds are very slow, but his throws are highly efficient. He also can’t dodge so you have to learn how to set up his Super. While Rook is not a top tier character and probably one of the worst when I play as him, the fundamentals he teaches is ridiculous.
:troq: :midori:
I put Troq/ Midori as also strong characters to learn to throw with. They usually have dominant throws. Troq has the more flexible gameplan and you’ll learn to zone more with him than Midori. With Midori you’ll learn how to punish more effectively.
:quince:
I forgot him initially, but he’s slow. Weirdly he can have the dominant throw due to how well he gets his 7.8 throws back and can have a grappler esque gameplan at times. K loops feel more of a valuation/flowchart thing though.
:persephone: :vendetta:
They don’t always the dominant throw, but throwing is such a requirement for them that you’ll learn how to Throw with these characters. Its also their best punishment with Kidney Shot + Wild Ride.

Footsies:
I consider this early game neutral in matchups where people don’t necessarily have oppressive Attack speeds. Usually the early game. The idea also is to throw enough that people try to Throw punish you and you Attack under them. Overlaps a bit with Rushdown.

:onimaru:
Literally this guys gameplan without 9s. His Guard Crush ability is so scary your opponent has to learn to play Normals. You also have all the attacks needed to undercut them.

:menelker: :lum:
Menelker IMO is a Footsies/Zoner character. His early game usually consists of setting up the 2.2 starter with a very scary 7.6 Throw. Lum’s throws are less scary, but his speeds throughout the whole gamestate is footsies.

:zane: :vendetta: :gloria:
Zane is all footsies. Vendetta/Gloria footsies are about setting up 2.2 undercuts, but I think they are a bit more wild than Menelker/Onimaru/Lum.

:valerie:
Its hard to determine whether Valerie is more of a Footsies or a Zoner character. Early game you want to get people to play over a 2.4 with your scary KD throws. Late game getting people to play stuff slower than 1.0 can be tough depending on the matchup.

Throw Punishment:
Generally playing high reward, yet slow attacks to beat Throws. Most of these character teach a Blodge heavy gameplan.

:argagarg: :geiger: :degrey: :midori::quince: :bbb::vendetta:
Getting your opponent to attack into Blodge and duffing Throws with undercuttable Attack Speeds is their gameplan.

:rook: :zane:
Not exactly Rook’s gameplan, but Slow Normals + Rook armor teach a lot. Zane often has hands slower than 2.3.

:grave::menelker::persephone:
Grave/Menelker are more of a Zoner than these characters, but their early game is Throw Punishment. Persephone has to make use of 3.0/4.0 attacks in neutral.

Zoning
Spamming oppressive attack speeds. Overlaps a lot with Rushdown. Probably easiest to learn. Most characters have a way to zone. Fighting AI is a good way to teach this skill.

:grave::jaina::lum::setsuki::gwen::menelker: Ranged :bbb:
Pretty much their gameplans.

:valerie::gloria::geiger::lum::persephone: :troq:
Usually primary/secondary gameplans.

Flowchart/Valuation:
What card should I play. All characters teach this to a high degree. Fighting AI is a fantastic way to teach this skill.

:setsuki::gloria::lum:
For Setsuki/Gloria hands decide what their best options are. Usually a best route. For Lum he’s insanely complicated at a high level.

:quince::persephone:
Not as flowcharty, but they’re really difficult to play making valuation more important.

Yomi Fundamentals in General:
Pretty much anyone except Gloria, Vendetta, Quince and Setsuki are good at teaching gameplans that carry over to everyone else. But the best are probably something like this? Hard to say.

:grave::argagarg::geiger::rook::troq:

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Hm, I agree with almost all of this, but not quite with your view of the best fundamental characters.

Argagarg works a lot better on low hand than most characters, due to his efficient damage but low combo potential, and has very strong inevitability that makes him rather unique. Grave has aces that rather warp his game plan (although he can definitely win without TPoS, knowing whether or not to go for it is almost a subgame in its own right for him) And Troq has a lot of concerns that are particular to him (needing blocks for Beast Unleashed, but not being able to build hands with them as well as others) while his moves are so good and efficient that he doesn’t worry so much about things that are important to others - he, too, functions very well at low hand.

I agree with you that Rook and Geiger are very good for demonstrating fundamental Yomi play, and to that list I would add Valerie. She is IMO probably the most fundamental-focused character given how important hand management is for her. Her moves have good properties, but she doesn’t have any of the “shortcuts” that deGrey, Menelker etc. have.

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I agree with your points, but for those very same points i think those characters are easier to learn with. Theres more room for error, but you can learn from your mistakes even if you are less punished for them.

If it makes sense Valerie is probably the better showcase of fundamentals but shes much harder to play as. The stuff you learn as her tends to be more Valerie specific. (2nd hardest of V1 next to Lum IMO)

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Agreed. The only character that I can’t play worth a damn. If it wasn’t for the hard CP (i.e. Arg), I would have put some time into him. He can be very good, and many players have limited experience against him.

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I believe you, but how is he complicated exactly?

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First of all I’m not an expert.

At a beginner level his speeds are really good and his straights are very high reward. Also the randomness of his abilities can get you out of bad spots. The reason he isn’t a common beginner pick is just because of how easy the Argagarg/DeGrey counterpicks are to play.

At higher levels he is probably the most “personal accountant” in the game and there’s lots of card counting to know the rewards of certain plays. He’s an inevitability character but you have to know how to set up poker flourish and which poker flourish to go for. While the 4 of a kind ace route is the most common, it takes awhile to set up. Of the inevitabilty characters he requires an enormous hand size and its not as straightforward as say “win combat while TD is active”, “land big super”, or have “Joker backup and overdose/chipout”.

For more analysis by a Lum player this guide could be good. It shows what type of mindset you need to play this character. Very math heavy.

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That does sound somewhat involved

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Since this thread is on the top I thought I’d ask this here:

I’m going to teach a friend and his kid (10 year old) to play this game. Which two characters are the best to teach them with? I want to use two characters and have them face off with each other in a demonstration play so they can get an idea and learn the basics of the game.

I personally, started off with DeGrey, then I moved on to Zane, then BBB, and now I’m trying to really learn Quince (even though I probably have no business learning Quince at my level). My son who is also 10 started with Grave and stuck with him for a long while and has started using Geiger a couple of weeks ago. We have dabbled here and there with other characters but pretty much those are the characters we know how to play better than others.

Which two do you suggest when I demo the game for them? Thanks for any help.

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Grave/Troq would be a fairly balanced match, and both characters prioritize a game plan that relies on blocking to build up a big hand/big super. However, since Grave is a shoto and Troq is a grappler, they have slightly different ways of executing that game plan. Could be a good learning matchup.

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As from personnal experience, my advice would be Setsuki or Gwen against Rook or Onimaru.
Grave and Jaina were designed to teach the game. But I’ve observed that people don’t like to think about strategy in their first games. With Setsuki you’re incentivized to explore the full RPS and that’s great !
Rook is a great antagonist to Setsuki because Rock Armor is less frustrating than being dodged for a new player. Bulky Rook with no heal will for sure be a great punching ball for a very fun first game.

IMO, balance is the last think to worry in a first game. RPS with characters is cool as core concept so as long as you allow your opponent to get fun with all options that’s nice !

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I’m going to have to second vengefulpickle here. There’s a reason why @Leontes recommends that match up. I think Grave vs Troq/Rook is a good beginner matchup.

However people are going to want to play the characters they want to gravitate towards. If they think Robot man is cool looking or Zane is awesome cause bombs and stuff let them play with them. I got a casual friend who loves Lum. Some people don’t want to play the game at a tournament level and the game is fun at all levels of play.

Quince is complex, but learning his ins and outs is very fun. Don’t let this thread dissuade you from playing characters you want to play. There was a video I watched from a fighting game youtuber named Maximillian. Basically what he said was if you really gravitate towards a character you’re just going to have more fun playing them. As a result you’re going to be more likely to learn with that character too. :slight_smile:

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Yeah, that’s definitely a great point. Step 1 is to enjoy playing the game, and the easiest way to do that is to play a character that you gravitate towards. Later, as you start getting deeper, then it makes more sense to start thinking about balance, deck strategy, hand-management, and the rest.

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Thanks for all the info. Really good stuff in here. I just want to make learning the basics of the game for my friend and his son as easy as possible. I’d figure I’d ease them in first in a demo game to let them get used to the system before they just go out and pick someone randomly. There are a lot of characters I don’t know how to play so I don’t want them to wind up picking Lum and I have no clue in how to utilize him and therefore leading to the teaching experience being bad.

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The core strategy is always the same:
Just win combat.

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I’ll add that I think Lum and Gloria (as well as Argagarg and Jaina to some degree) are characters that teach a very important skill, which is planning beyond the current combat reveal.

Lum and Gloria both have the ability to deal large amounts of damage without having to win combat. Thinking through the sequence of possible combat reveals over two or three turns is crucial to their end-game, and is one of the most important skills to build when playing them, because being able to kill your opponent without having to win combat is an immensely powerful ability. This skill is a very important thing to work on with other characters, even without out of combat damage, and even in the early game. It’s important, when thinking about what you are going to do this turn, to consider what game-states it will result in on the next turn.

Before you go for throw to set-up knockdown, what will you do with knockdown if you get it? Do you have a good combat reveal on your knockdown turn? Do you have more than one? Before playing your normal attack into a certain throw, think about your alternatives. Should you undercut them with a throw instead? Is it better to risk getting thrown in order to preserve a valuable resource for a future turn?

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I’d like to add that certain characters are good Block breakers and teach you how to lead your opponent on into playing too passive and blocky so you can overwelm them with chip damage and stuff that beats blocks in special innovative ways. Jaina, Geiger, Oni, Gwen.

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Would you consider Grave here as well, with his Lightning Trap (J)?

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Yes. 10chars.