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The Bureau of Balance (collating and testing fan-made changes)


#1

At the request of @Hobusu and a few of the other participants in the v3 wishlist thread I’ve made this new thread to try and collate the suggested changes into one place, separated by character. The idea is to make each of those a wiki post so the community can keep editing them as ideas develop, are tested, and then accepted or rejected.


Character Index

:grave: Grave Stormborne
:jaina: Jaina Stormborne
:midori: Master Midori
:setsuki: Setsuki Hiruki
:rook: Garus Rook
:degrey: Jefferson DeGrey
:valerie: Valerie Rose
:geiger: Max Geiger
:lum: Lum Bamfoo
:argagarg: Argagarg Garg
:quince: Sirus Quince
:onimaru: General Onimaru
:bbb: Bal-Bas-Beta
:troq: Troq Bashur
:menelker: Master Menelker
:persephone: Mistress Persephone
:gloria: Gloria Grayson
:gwen: Gwen Grayson
:vendetta: Vendetta
:zane: Captain Zane


Background/Motivation

It’s important before reading on that you understand where we’re coming from when suggesting changes. Handily I did just that a few weeks back:

I’m a huge fan of Yomi v2 and fully intend to be playing it again competitively in the near future. It’s a great game, with good balance overall, and it’s thoroughly enjoyable to play. However, that doesn’t mean that we fans don’t from time to time have an idea like “If only Rook could end range with special blocks, maybe his matchup vs BBB wouldn’t be so bad…”. These are the kind of ideas we want to record, playtest and discuss.

Importantly, there are no concrete plans to update Yomi in the pipeline, but Sirlin has hinted in some recent comments that its something he’d maybe like to come back to in the future. For the time being this will remain an effort by fans for fans to enjoy as in-progress house-rules, with no guarantee that these changes would make it to v3 even if it did become a reality.


I thought it would be a good idea to try and set out the goals of this thread to try and keep it on point. As I understand it, we want to:

  • Improve the worst matchups in the game to make them more even
  • Compress the tiers to make even more of the cast more broadly competitive
  • Retain or improve upon existing character flavour wherever possible
  • Improve the intuition and clarity of the rules where appropriate
  • Only makes changes where necessary, but not be afraid to change a bunch of things when that’s what’s required

(These are also up for discussion, but hopefully I’m in the right ballpark first time)


I’m not sure how the exact use of this thread will evolve, but ideally if changes can be suggested and discussed initially in the v3 wishlist thread then they can be recorded here once there’s at least some support for them. I think this would also be a good location for people to offer to test specific changes and then feedback their results.

Oh and please resist the urge to use the power of wiki to turn every section into fivec sucks memes *cough* @Niijima-San *cough*


Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)
#2

Grave

Brief Discussion

Grave is generally considered the character that others are measured against in Yomi. This is not by accident, as performance against the Wind Warrior was seen as a key part of balance testing in the development of the game.

Grave is a solid all-rounder with strong zoning tools and places in the upper tiers of the cast, without being considered top-tier.


Consensus Changes

The only changes that have been discussed are small nerfs to TPoS damage to reduce the swingyness of his matches a little. There hasn’t been much support for this so far, so he can effectively be considered stable.

None


#3

Jaina

(Reserved for later use)

#4

Midori

(Reserved for later use)


#5

Setsuki

Brief Discussion

Setsuki is not considered top tier, but is widely listed among the stronger characters in the game with no glaring weaknesses outside of :troq:. She has the fastest attack combo starter in the game, often the fastest throw, and the ability to fully combo off of dodge reveals on the turns her innate is triggered. On top of this, her best combat options can also be recycled if she wins combat, creating a vortex where the opponent has to guess which of her dominant options she’s going to play each turn.

In a world where the top tiers are nerfed, its important that Setsuki ninja is prevented from becoming too strong.


Consensus Changes

Sets’ AA ender seems quite high damage and out of place amongst her generally low damage/card kit. This change should make her have to win more combats to defeat her opponents, giving them more chances to win.

AA Surprise Gift [During Combat]
17(3) damage —> 15(2) damage

One of the most consistently complained about components of Sets’ kit is the ability of her 7s to cycle other 7s back into her hand ad-infinitum.

7* Bag of Tricks [End of Turn]
If this is your only card in hand, put up to three non-Joker cards from your discard pile, except 7s and Jokers, on top of your deck in any order, then discard this card.


Changes Under Consideration

This change is aimed at preventing Setsuki from picking up her AA with her 7, which reduces her ability to cycle big damage into her hand. This hasn’t been included under “consensus” because it’s thought she might struggle too much vs (reworked) :troq: with this nerf.

7* Bag of Tricks [End of Turn]
If this is your only card in hand, put up to three non-Joker cards cards of different ranks, except 7s and Jokers, from your discard pile on top of your deck in any order, then discard this card.


Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)
#6

Rook

Brief Discussion

Rook is generally considered among the weaker of the characters. Despite having a really damaging super throw in Checkmate Buster, he has no dodges and therefore can’t threaten a true mix-up with it. He also has really bad losing matchups to :bbb::argagarg::geiger: and is extremely safe to gold burst against.

Most of the changes that have been discussed are directed towards his special blocks, as they tend to be viewed as the weakest part of his kit.


Consensus Changes

Having his special blocks return on Block/Blodge (just like Gwen’s 10*) can be considered a much needed quality of life/intuition fix which also gives him a mild buff. The main balance fix is for both 3* and 5* to end Range, (reworked) Temporal Distortion and (reworked) Bubble Shield . Gold Burst is still safer against Rook than any other character but his 3* will now beat it.

These special blocks now explicitly revert to normal blocks when countered, which drastically improves his match-up against :argagarg: and gives a mild-moderate buff in his match-ups vs :grave::setsuki::persephone:

3* Entangling Vines [During Combat]
When you block an attack or Joker with this card, take no block damage, discard this card, and don’t draw a card from blocking. Hit the opponent for 5 damage and knock them down. Next turn your attacks and throws are 3 speed faster, to a minimum speed of 1.0. (If this ability is countered this card reverts to a normal block)

5* Stone Wall [During Combat]
When you block an attack with this card, take no block damage, discard this card, and don’t draw a card from blocking. Hit the opponent for the damage their attack would have dealt if it had won combat. (If this ability is countered this card reverts to a normal block)


Changes Under Consideration

Suggested by everybody’s favorite Rook main, changing 9-throw to a 9-attack is designed to improve the max damage of Rock Armor, improve access to straights, and give Rook a credible (and scary) knockdown mixup with both even and odd normals.

It has been well received so far, so could almost be considered consensus, but it needs at least some testing to make sure it doesn’t break anything

9-throw —> 9-attack


#7

DeGrey

Brief Discussion

DeGrey is considered to be one of the strongest characters in Yomi. He falls outside the “20XX-meta triangle” of :zane: :troq: :geiger: but has good matchups against most of the cast, mostly on the back of the enormous damage potential generated by his innate.


Consensus Changes

It’s been suggested that DeGrey’s innate should revert back to its First Edition version, where it didn’t add damage to his AA super. This seems to be generally acceptable as everyone is in agreement that A-dodge --> QAA and 7-throw --> AA deal enormous damage off of very powerful reveals.

Moral High Ground
If your opponent has more cards in hand than you, your special and super attacks deal extra damage equal to the difference. (Compute this bonus after your combo is finished. Special attacks are Jacks, Queens, and Kings.)


Changes Under Consideration

DeGrey also has a much greater survivability than his 90HP would suggest, because he can use Troublesome Rhetoric to boost his HP and/or reduce his damage on a combat loss. This change reduces it by 3HP (splitting the difference of the usually cited 8HP or 10HP) to reduce his effective lifetotal.

4* Troublesome Rhetoric [Draw Phase]
Choose attack, block, throw, or dodge. If the opponent combat-reveals that option this turn, gain 12 9 life.


#8

Valerie

(Reserved for later use)


#9

Geiger

Brief Discussion

Geiger is generally considered a top-tier character and a key member of the 20XX-meta triangle along with :zane::troq:. He is also known for strongly oppressing a number of the cast with his excellent speeds, block beating projectiles and joker immune combos.

Notably Geiger has the most powerful ability in the game Temporal Distortion, which can checkmate opponents from high health totals if they are knocked down and/or don’t have the right tools in hand.


Consensus Changes

In order to improve his lop-sided matchup vs Rook and to give the entire cast more outs against checkmate situations, it has long been suggested that Temporal Distortion should end on any hit, including gold burst and (reworked) :rook: special blocks.

4* Temporal Distortion [Draw Phase]
Fetch a Jack or Queen from your discard pile. Ongoing. Your Time Spirals are zero combo point Linkers that do +1 damage each and are immune to Rewind Time Jokers. Discard this card when you get hit by an attack or throw.


Changes Under Consideration

The consensus is that Geiger requires a further nerf but there is still some disagreement on the best approach. The two most accepted suggestions are to nerf his TD damage by removing the +1 damage to Time Spirals or to nerf his Time Stop combos by making Time Stop throws become enders.

This latter change is the bigger nerf and specifically removes his ability to checkmate knocked down opponents from high HP with Time Spirals. This makes Quince and the Grapplers much happier.

4* Temporal Distortion [Draw Phase]
Fetch a Jack or Queen from your discard pile. Ongoing. Your Time Spirals are zero combo point Linkers that do +1 damage each and are immune to Rewind Time Jokers. Discard this card when you get hit by an attack or throw.

Time Stop
If the opponent takes block damage from a Time Spiral, they can’t activate innate abilities from blocking, and you may throw them. (Play a throw card from your hand. You cannot continue your combo. The opponent doesn’t draw a card from blocking if you throw them.)


#10

Lum

Brief Discussion

Lum is actually considered a pretty decent character, but he suffers from horrible match-ups vs :argagarg::degrey: so doesn’t tend to see a lot of play at present. His changes are focussed on improving those match-ups.

This may also be a consequence of his kit being amongst the most complicated and also leaning on a lot of random chance elements.


Changes Under Consideration

Lum’s throws are designed to be purposefully inefficient, but he still struggles to kill :argagarg::degrey: where he has to rely primarily on throw damage to kill. Giving him +1 pump on his throws should help that.

There is a concern that this might make his late game burst damage too strong so until testing can prove otherwise, this change remains under consideration.

Normal Throw Damage
X+3 (+3 Any) —> X+3 (+4 Any)

10-throw Extra Juice
10+4 damage (+3 Any) —> 10+4 damage (+4 Any)

Additionally, because both of Lum’s most disadvantaged matchups are against characters who rely on recurring Aces, changing Jackpot to be more likely to find those Aces threatens them more than other characters. In exchange for a higher chance of success and a slightly higher maximum damage, it loses the guaranteed draw. This means he needs to wait until he’s confident that he’ll (ahem) hit the jackpot to use it. It is also more likely to deal more damage to Lum than the original Jackpot, which further increases the incentive to wait until the opponent has multiple known Aces and has played at least one Joker. Overall these changes seem quite balanced and flavorful (note he gets most payoff for finding “pocket” aces).

Importantly it also means :argagarg: has more of a decision to make when deciding which ability to counter.

7* Jackpot [Draw Phase]
Draw a card then The opponent reveals two cards from their hand at random. For each Ace, they take 5 damage and you draw a card. For each Joker, you take 2 damage.


#11

Argagarg

Brief Discussion

Argagarg is generally placed with :grave::setsuki:, in the upper tiers but not top-tier. He has strong matchups against a number of the cast, primarily due to the limitations of the other kits to deal with his extremely strong ace-block and counter.

His most glaring weakness is a weak match-up against Gloria, as she effectively neutralises all of his kit with her fast recurring pokes and healing abilities.


Consensus Changes

Bubble Shield is easily the strongest block in the game, and gives Argagarg a very safe advantage time which Rook specifically struggles to end. Slightly nerfing Bubble Shield to end on all hits brings it in line with Long Range and (reworked) Temporal Distortion. It also gives Rook additional outs through his special blocks.

In addition to a general nerf, Argagarg also needs to have some way to counteract :gloria:. The most commonly suggested way for this to be implemented is to buff Bubble Shield to prevent healing effects.

A* Bubble Shield [During Combat]
If this blocks an attack or Joker, draw a card and this gets: Ongoing. Your Hex of Murkwood deals an extra 2 damage per turn and prevents the opponent gaining life. When you get hit by an attack or throw, take no damage, end combat and discard this.


#12

Quince

Brief Discussion

Quince’s unique vortexing playstyle sees him retain strong character loyalists despite his very bad matchups against :zane::geiger:.

While he’s known to also have a tough match against :valerie:, his matches against most other characters are rarely discussed in the context of balance changes, which may imply that they’re well balanced, or perhaps insufficiently explored.


Changes Under Consideration

There haven’t been many suggestions for Quince in the various V3 discussions, likely due to the cohesive nature of his kit. However the suggestions made this far are targeted at his worst matchups.

Quince’ slow speeds and reliance on dodges means he is particularly weak to being knocked down. This is extra bad for him if the opponent has mix-up normals that beat his AA, which is why :zane::valerie: are so tough. While :geiger: doesn’t has such an option, he can threaten Fast Time Spiral when Quince is KD to beat everything except AA or Gold Burst. With TD active this can checkmate Quince for guaranteed lethal damage.

The suggestion to make his AA 1.0 speed was originally well received as it gives him a much needed answer to 1.0 speed mix-up normals. However @migohunter has expressed concern that 1.0 speed would allow it to trade with too many things, with each trade giving Quince a chance to use Positive Spin. There is a worry that this would warp his gameplay towards AA spam. It also doesn’t aid him against :geiger:

AA Consent of the Governed
1.2 speed —> 1.0 speed

An alternative suggestion was to add a purely defensive option for KD turns, in the form of a special block on his 4. This has the added advantage that it provides a way to beat Time Spirals when KD by avoiding block damage. The idea was to preserve his mechanical flavour where he lacks a reversal. This block damage component is less controversial than giving Quince a tool that beats mix-up normals. So far there have been two formulations. The first beats all mix-up normals and ignores block damage but always gets discarded, never draws a card and costs a card to trigger. The second is speed gated to only beat very fast mix-up normals but is able to operate similarly to proposed V3 Special Blocks for :rook::gwen:

4* Filibuster [During Combat]
You may discard a card to make this block immune to mixup normals and block damage. This doesn’t return to hand or draw from blocking.

4* Filibuster [During Combat]
Discard this block to make it immune to block damage and beat mix-up normals faster than 3.0 speed.


Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)
#13

Onimaru

Brief Discussion

Onimaru is generally regarded as a strong character and arguably goes even or better against every member of the 20XX triangle :troq::zane::geiger:. Unfortunately, he has very bad matchups against :degrey: and :argagarg: that hold him back a lot in competitive play.


Consensus Changes

Suggestions for Onimaru have focused on improving his throws, since his most challenging matchups have powerful dodges or blocks that are immune to his Guard Crush normal attacks. Changing Onimaru’s 6-attack to a named throw helps him deal with DeGrey’s Ace dodge and Arg’s Ace block. This also gives him another throw that beats Quince’s King, helping Onimaru in another challenging matchup. Note the name is currently just a placeholder.

6-attack —> 6-throw Spinal Toss
8.6 speed, 8+4+4 damage (+2 any), does not knockdown


#14

Bal-Bas-Beta

Brief Discussion

BBB (affectionately designated Beelzebot by :rook: mains) has probably the most polarised match-up distribution in the cast. Long Range completely changes the option space of the game, notably making non-ranged throws illegal (oh dear grapplers) and his dodges completely safe unless he’s in a mirror match.

Agreeable changes to BBB have mostly been focussed around Junkshot, his long range-only Q as it’s a big part of what makes his kit so oppressive against the grapplers once he pushes them away.


Consensus Changes

Slowing Junkshot to 3.0 speed gives the grapplers a bunch more options to use against an otherwise very scary kit. This also lets us nerf :troq: without skewing his tense but generally considered even MU against the lord of hell :bbb: (You can thank us later :rook::midori:). Tweaking range to trigger on block damage rather than his normals being blocked also buffs :rook: in neutral.

Long Range
Whenever your [range-giving] moves deal block damage or win combat, set combat to ranged next turn.

Q Junkshot
2.2 speed —> 3.0 speed


#15

Troq

Brief Discussion

Troq is probably the best character in the game. It’s not that any one his options are overwhelmingly strong on their own (though Beast Unleashed is pretty goddamn powerful), its more that all of his options are good nearly all of the time.

The suggested changes focus on nerfing his J, which gives Troq a third face card that completely ruin’s Zane’s day, and his AA which is actually so good at 1.0 speed that it’s literally been dubbed Good Move.


Consensus Changes

Troq doesn’t really need his Troq Armor ability as the speed of fast J already undercuts nearly every normal attack in the game. Since (reworked) :bbb: has a 3.0 speed Junkshot additionally slowing fast J to 2.4 speed seems completely reasonable.

Slowing AA to 1.2 speed and limiting War Stomp to once per turn are also both oft-mentioned changes to make his options just a little worse.

J Bullrush
2.2 speed —> 2.4 speed

J* Troq Armor
Deleted

AA Eagle Totem
1.0 speed —> 1.2 speed

10* War Stomp [Draw Phase]
If neither player is knocked down, knock the opponent down, draw a card, and the opponent discards a card.


Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)
#16

Menelker

(Reserved for later use)


#17

Persephone

Brief Discussion

Persephone sees very little play in competitive Yomi outside of a few very skilled character loyalists. Her deck offers a control style that generally takes a while to get going, but once she has the opponent in her vortex she can threaten to set up a very scary hard lock where she is guaranteed to win.

Most suggested changes are focused on improving either her early game, general consistency, or her longevity so that she can more reliably reach her strong end game. This is a very difficult balance to strike without making her broken, so these changes will likely remain conservative.


Consensus Changes

Normally +1 damage to a certain class of card is not a significant enough change to really merit consideration, however :persephone: needs to win a lot of combats, often with throws to manage to kill the opponent. It’s believed that this would likely reduce her need to win by approximately one combat per game, without tinkering with her delicately balanced kit. It also has the nice result of making her the only female character with 8 damage normal throws.

Normal Throw Damage
7 damage —> 8 damage

K-throw Wild Ride
9 damage —> 10 damage


#18

Gloria

Brief Discussion

Gloria is another character with a unique playstyle which draws dedicated character loyalists. She’s considered fairly challenging to pilot well, and her kit is considered very cohesive. This latter fact makes targeted balance changes challenging to implement.

Gloria has a very strong match-up vs :argagarg:, but with her weakness to burst damage, she suffers badly against :zane::midori:. With some reasonable Zane nerfs planned, it’s actually the latter of these opponents that her changes have been aimed at.


Consensus Changes

Midori has a specific weakness to throw enders, so making Gloria’s Q throw into one gives her the ability to attack into dK or FDB and still end dragon form. dQ is also a severe problem for her, and the only agreeable solution seemed to be speeding up Sun and Moon to undercut it.

Q Moonbar Cage
Can’t Combo —> 3CP Ender

AAA Sun and Moon
0.6 speed —> 0.4 speed


#19

Gwen

(Reserved for later use)


#20

Vendetta

(Reserved for later use)