Rules Questions thread

That’s right. It’s called “Desperation” for a reason! :wink:

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Well, that’s still better than after the discard/draw, so at least you don’t have a 0-card hand.

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Hey, I think it will go to the future and then never gain haste or ephemeral. I’ll try to get back to you on this.

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Forcast ruling in the database says
"Starts off in the future, not in play."
“When you remove the last, it arrives.”

Sanatorium says
"Put up to two tech 0, I and/or II units from your hand into play."
If you put a unit into play, does it arrive?
If yes, then it means forcasted units can potentially arrive twice

Eg (literal interpretation of rules)
Sanatorium puts in play a forcasted unit. The unit arrives and gain haste+ephemeral. The unit still has time runes.
You can attack with the unit and it will die at end of turn.
If you remove the times runes with spells, the unit will arrive again.
There are no forcast units with arrive ability, but if there was one, you could potentially trigger its arrive effect twice while it is in play :grin:

Of course this just following text literally. We have to wait for sharpo to come with the definite answer

If you read a little further into the Forecast ruling in the database, you get this:

“When it would come into play from something other than forecast, instead it goes to the “future” zone and gets time runes. — Sirlin”

So it definitely doesn’t arrive from Sanatorium. Sanatorium puts it in the future. The question is whether it remembers for the next several turns that it’s ephemeral and hasted. Sharpo seemed to be leaning “no” presumably because a) it’s another zone (though plenty of forecasted units have haste, so there’s nothing saying it can’t) and b) that’s a load of bookkeeping.

I would lean that it does, because you can always put a random other toekn on it (say a building token) to remind yourself that it has ephemeral and haste. But it’s lame either way, because you have to wait 'til Tech II, play Sanatorium, wait a turn because Sanatorium doesn’t have haste, then wait a few turns for forecast to wear off. It’s not happening before you die.

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Corrected. :smiley:

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Even if it gained ephemeral and haste while in the future, it would lose that stuff when it changes zones to be in play. I’ll update the rulings spreadsheet to note on Sanatorium about the interaction with Forecast.

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one very basic but as far as i see not yet posed question concerning nether drain:

the text says “can’t level up THIS turn”. usually this turn means only the turn of the active player… so my opponent can lvl up on his coming up turn?

I believe that’s correct. That text is meant to prevent nether drain from being used to like, get Geiger’s maxband 3 times or something.

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So does that mean that any time something changes zones it loses all non-printed modifiers/additional text? (Notable exception: invisible “has died” flag on heroes to make BH Resurrector work.)
Things from the future can keep haste when they hit the present, but only when they’re printed on the card?

I assume that kidnapped creatures with runes and attachments keep them because they haven’t changed zones, just controllers?

This makes sense (esp. when thinking about changing zones from in-play to Graveyard/Geiger or Prynn Trash/discard), but I hadn’t seen it codified anywhere, so I wanted to be clear on it.

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Yes, cards have no memory. They forget everything that happened to them when they change zones. This includes any attachments (which are discarded), runes and any effects which currently affect them.

There are two exceptions. One is that heroes remember whether or not they have died. The second is that units remember whose control they were under when they left play, and if they return to play, they do so under the control of that player.

I really don’t like the second rule, and it wouldn’t surprise me if it gets reverted. It gets very messy in combination with other effects. E.g. I have Second Chances in play. I Kidnapping a unit from my opponent, attack with it, and then sacrifice it to some effect (e.g. Orpal, Omegacron, etc.). It has been sacrificed and so is sent to my opponents discard pile, but Second Chances triggers, jumps ahead of the queue to pull the unit from my opponents discard and return it to play. Even though it has come from my opponents discard pile, it somehow still remembers that it was under my control when it died, and returns to play under my control. However, if I sacrifice it again, and my opponent resurrects it with Garth’s maxband the following turn, it has forgotten about my control, and comes into play under his control.

I can get that that’s the RAI, but I think it’s going to cause issues in trying to codify it. @sharpobject is a clever guy though, so I’m sure he will find a way.

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There are a few parts of the rules I dislike enough to want to change, but this is not one of them.

Second Chances works on “your non-token units.” Those are the ones that were in play under your control before they left play. So if you use Kidnapping on a purple player’s unit and sacrifice it, the purple player’s Second Chances won’t trigger.

Edit: Haha, the above is based on misreading the post. Nevermind.

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@sharpobject
I think his example was you kidnap and you have second chances (SC).
Orpal sacrifice Kidnapped unit -> opponent discard pile
Your SC triggers -> return unit from opponent discard to your board (remembers who controlled it last)
This unit dies again -> opponent discard pile

On opponent turn
Maxes his Garth -> picks the same unit from his discard and put in play in his own board although the unit changed zones and last time it was under your control. (didnt remember who controlled it last)

So cards remembering who controlled them last is inconsistent in this scenario (?)

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Oh, thanks. That’s right and Jadiel’s post is right then.

When you’re directed to “return a card to play,” you care who controlled it last. When you’re directed to “put it into play,” you do not. I think only 3 purple cards will direct you to “return a card to play.”

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I get that, but it seems strange that a card’s “memory” depends on neither the effect that makes it leave play, nor the location of the card itself, but on the effect which returns it to play.

Like I said though, we all know how it’s supposed to work, but I’ll be interested to see how you codify it in a Magic-style rules document.

Alright! I hope I can do better than ```701.26f If an activated or triggered ability of a permanent that isn’t a delayed triggered ability of that permanent tries to transform it, the permanent transforms only if it hasn’t transformed since the ability was put onto the stack. If a delayed triggered ability of a permanent tries to transform that permanent, the permanent transforms only if it hasn’t transformed since that delayed triggered ability was created. In either case, if the permanent has already transformed, the instruction to transform is ignored. This is a change from previous rules.

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Welcome to today’s game show: Rule in a card game played for fun OR excerpt from a question on the New York state bar exam?

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Ah, memories… I used to carry the M:TG Comprehensive Rules around with me in a big binder back when I was in high-school…

::sigh::

There’s a reason laws (and comprehensive rules) are written the way they are, and it isn’t because they want to make it obtuse.

701.26f is the extended version of “Abilities don’t transform a card’s other face.” The additional words come from rigorously defining every word in that sentence in a way that is consistent with all the other rules and definitions.

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Agreed. And if anyone doesn’t agree, try reading the NAIC Schedule D documentation. :stuck_out_tongue:

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