Rules Questions thread

Awesome. In my case it was a Voidstar under the influence of Ferocity, facing down a squad lead Plague Spitter and a Bone Collector in technician.

1 Like

But uh… why wouldn’t you just Swift Strike the Squad leader to make sure?

4 Likes

Yea, there’s no reason to do the attack the way you describe. It actually brings up the idea, does overpower damage also pierce armor under the effects of ferocity? Obviously the main attack would pierce armor, but I am not sure about overpower. Also the only case where I think it could matter would be units with elite training.

Uh, it was the principle of the thing :blush:? At the table I was thinking, “don’t tangle with plague spitter”, and things spiralled out of control from there…

1 Like

Rules are generally not meant to trick you. Since it says “they ignore armor”, and overpower for every other effect is the same as any other combat damage, then yes. It would also apply to a patrolling Ironbark Treant, or any number of buffs on a unit attacking a unit under the effects of ferocity.

3 Likes

Glossary definition for Armor Piercing is simply “Ignores Armor.” It doesn’t specify combat damage (and Overpower is combat damage anyway, so…). So I think you could even give Armor Piercing to, say, a Firebat, and the Firebat’s ability would ignore armor, too!

1 Like

Maybe it was a Voidblocker with Elite Training?

1 Like

Can you use Quince’s Maxband to copy an Abomination? I know that the current player chooses the order of simultaneous events, but I’m not sure how the notion of “simultaneous” would work in this case, mostly because Abomination’s ability is static rather than triggered. If it were something like “Arrives or Upkeep: All other creatures get -1/-1 until your next ready phase”, it would definitely work. I suspect it works anyway, but I would love some confirmation on this. The question is basically whether the application of the -1/-1 is simultaneous with the arrival of the Abomination (in which case it wouldn’t work, because based on the queue model, all simultaneous events occur before any events triggered by those events) or if it is triggered by the arrival of the Abomination (in which place you could choose to have Quince’s Maxband trigger first). I suspect it is triggered, because if it were simultaneous, you could technically choose to apply the -1/-1 before the Abomination arrives. I can’t think of a situation where that would matter, but it seems strange anyway.

You could theoretically make a copy of the abomination, but not with just a normal mirror. Quince maxband reads “whenever … unit arrives…” That means that the mirror will die before quince maxband can complete the copy. The abomination -1/-1 is a game state calculation, rather than something that is in the queue. Game state calculations happen all the time, such as calculating whether or not something is dead, or whether a base is destroyed, etc.

However, you could get a 1/2 mirror with Macciatus, the whisperer, and then make the abomination copy successfully. Note macciatus would let you copy an enemy abomnation in this case.

3 Likes

Follow-up: You could only do this once though, because now that you have 2 abominations in play, even the +1 health Macciatus gives the mirrors isn’t enough to keep them alive. ;p

Hmm… Okay. Is there a list (or set of criteria) somewhere of what constitutes a “game state calculation” and therefore avoids the queue? I know there are specific rulings that explicitly state this for the other two cases you cite (a unit being dead, a base being destroyed), but it’s not clear to me from those that Abomination’s ability would qualify. Even in the case of a unit dying, there must in certain circumstances be an order imposed, because death can trigger other things. How is the order imposed on events like death distinct from the queue, exactly?

1 Like

You can think of a state-based event as being kind of like the opposite of a trigger. You said it yourself that you weren’t sure if the Abomination’s ability really counted as a trigger, so I think you can sort of “feel” the difference.

Where it gets tricky is when state-based effects trigger things, like a unit is considered killed if it has 0 or less health remaining (state-based) and when a unit is killed, it is discarded (trigger).

You can think of it like this:

After each and every game action, evaluate the board and perform the following cleanup tasks (at the same time):
If a tech building / add-on was just destroyed, deal 2 damage to its controller’s Base
If a unit has lethal damage, destroy it (this effect might be replaced by Indestructible or another replacement effect)
If a token is anywhere that is not in play, it ceases to exist
If an Illusion was just targeted, destroy it

If anything triggers off something being destroyed, add those effects (in an order chosen by the Active Player) to the end of the queue.
Then, after the cleanup tasks are done, add anything that triggered from the game action to the end of the queue.

A game action is any of:
“Casting” a spell by paying its gold cost and revealing it from your hand
Choosing a target of a spell or ability
Resolving a single instruction of a spell or ability (e.g. Earthquake)
Playing a unit/hero/building by paying its gold cost and revealing it from your hand
A unit/hero/building arriving in play
Choosing the target of an attack
Resolving Swift Strike damage
Resolving normal combat damage
Maybe some other things that I’m not thinking of at the moment.

So, in the Abomination example, as soon as you finish the “Abomination Arrives” game action, you check all the units in play to see if any of them have lethal damage, destroy any that do, put anything that triggered from those deaths in the queue, and then put anything that triggered from its arrival into the queue. His static ability of -1/-1 to other units is in effect for the whole process.

Another interesting interaction is that if you have a Drill Sergeant with 2 damage and no runes, and an Abomination in your opponent’s Jail, you can play a unit (adding “put a rune on DS” to the queue), have it enter the Jail (adding “put Abom into play” to the queue), and end up with a living DS; whereas if there is no Jail you get: play Abom (adding “put a rune on DS” to the queue), Abom enters play, DS dies, then the rune placement fizzles out since the DS is already dead.

4 Likes

First, the state based calculation of a thing being dead, and the trigger of all the things that could happen when something dies are seperate. The classic example at this point is Judgment Day and 2 Captured Bugblatters. The question of “what order do things die” is the wrong question. They all die at the same time, and everything sees everything else die, because the state based calculation determines that everything is dead, and the death triggers are all added to the queue at the same time. You then can order them however you like as the active player. The bugblatters dont care that they are dead, their ability is already in the queue. Technically, Quince’s maxband could go in the queue for the abomination, but by the time it tries to resolve, there won’t be a mirror available because it has died.

The diference between state based and triggered boils down to whether it is an ability like “Dies: X” or if it is just a constant effect, like a +1 or -1 Rune.

A list of state-based actions is here: Rules Questions thread - #1038 by sharpobject

I don’t think it’s comprehensive, but it covers 95% of them.

2 Likes

Right, in this case, I can sort of “feel” the difference, but I’d like an explicit distinction that didn’t require me to rely on my feelings. I think I get it, but I’d like to know for certain. @Jadiel the list helps. @zhavier, does that mean that if two things die at the same time (e.g. due to abomination being played) and they both have multiple death triggers, you can interleave those triggers? (in other words put something that triggers from A dying after something that triggers from B dying but before something else that triggers from B dying).

Think of state based actions as “actions you know to do because of the rules of the game, rather than something written on a card or on a patrol zone.” So, you know your base takes 2 when add-ons are destroyed because the rules say so. You know heroes gain free levels when an opposing hero dies because the rules say so. You know that units and killed when they take lethal damage or their life is reduced to 0 or less because the rules say so, etc.

That’s how I had been thinking of them, but Abomination’s ability is printed on a card, so there’s a little more to it than that.

1 Like

And to answer this

Yes. Like if you have two Pirate Gang Commanders in play, and all your units die simultaneously, you can order their multiple triggers in any way you choose (assuming you are the active player).

His ability is printed on the card, but “whether anything dies because of it” is state based.

2 Likes