So, in other words, patrol slot bonuses simply don’t trigger a reevaluation of which units Musketeer/Midori ability bonuses apply to? But, presumably, applying modifiers from other sources does (e.g. by casting Forest’s Favor on Musketeer)? In which case, surely there are some actions or circumstances that could force a reevaluation of Musketeer/Midori ability bonuses after those units have locked in as patrollers, which would cause the Long-Range or +1/+1 to stop applying until the controlling player declared patrollers again on their next turn?
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Especially Fire Tech II instead of the more aggressive Blood or the stronger Anarchy Tech III…
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My guess is that it has been decided that units in Lookout should benefit from Midori’s bonus, and so @sharpobject is endeavoring to make rulings consistent with that decision.
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This is interesting considering Wandering Mimic.
Opponent patrols a 3 power attacker in Elite.
Opponent’s Behind the Ferns gives the 3 power patroller Stealth.
Opponents Mimic gets stealth from the 3 power patroller.
Elite makes it 4 power patroller.
Result:
4 power patroller with stealth & mimic with stealth.
Note: In general It seems that Wandering Mimic should apply after this ‘patrol zone layer’; it doesn’t change the above, but could if it were a different ability.
I have wandering mimic before patrol bonuses, but I don’t think it ever matters.
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I don’t think anything would break really.
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I think @Coiser is arguing that, intuitively, one would think that if player A has a 3/3 and Behind The Ferns, and player B has a Wandering Mimic, player A might think that they could patrol their 3/3 in the elite slot to prevent player B’s Mimic from gaining stealth, but they’d be wrong.
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Yeah, this is one of those ‘you didn’t know a non-intuitive rule’ scenarios.
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Yes. For that, the orders [ferns, patrol, mimic] and [ferns, mimic, patrol] (I’m using this one) give the same result.
We’d need [patrol, ferns, mimic] to let the ferns player deprive their opponent’s mimic of stealth. Or we’d need some other rule that causes us to calculate dependencies among abilities and change the order based on that stuff.
Yes, sorry, I understand the point you were trying to make. I just meant that it seems to me more intuitive that the order would be [patrol, ferns, mimic], but I couldn’t tell you exactly why it feels that way to me.
EDIT: I suppose, now that I think about it a bit, I’ve always felt like game rules apply first, then card rules are applied, and the patrol zone bonuses sort of struck me like a “game rules”-level effect. Maybe the lowest-priority game rule, but still before card rules.
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Let’s say I have a level 3 Midori in my play area, and a Tiger Cub patrolling in my Lookout slot. My opponent trades a hero for my Squad Leader, bumping my Midori up to level 5. The Tiger Cub is already in the Lookout slot with Resist 1, so does he not receive the +1/+1 bonus from Midori’s ability until my next turn?
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He does get it. Lookout never stops Midori’s midband from working.
In that case, I don’t understand what’s happening here at all.
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very wierd. I hope for some reverse or rule errata here.
I think it’s not a “timing during turn or across turns” thing.
It’s a timing on the order effects are applied every time you re-evaluate which effects are being/have been applied. That’s why sharpo refers to them as “layers.”
So as soon as Midori midbands, you go through all your units from scratch ala EricF’s description in the last bullet of the 2nd post of this thread (and you apply the Midori bonus at the appropriate layer). And again, the patrol stuff is applied last.
So (and I realize this is weird, and I’m not sure I like it): Tiger cub doesn’t lose Resist and re-gain it, but once Mid is at mid, the cub becomes a 3/3 that got Resist “after”. It works better if you think of them as shells or coats of paint instead of timing?
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Calculating the game state is done in a timing agnostic manner as much as possible, from everything I have seen Sharpo say.
So, In order o calculate the current game state, everything, buffs, modifiers, damage, is treated as if they all just happened, and they have to have an order to be applied. The net result, is that you can take a game state snapshot and without knowing anything about the game up to that point, you can determine what buffs and modifiers are applied to everything.
Sharpo is having patrol slots apply last in this calculation, with a mostly otherwise intuitive ordering for everything else.
In the example where my midori reaches midband while my tiger cub is in lookout, the game state is still calculated without regard for when things occurred. Strip everything back to base components, then apply the buffs in the correct order, for this example, the main point is that patrol is applied last.
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Strange:
A.) Bluecoat Musketeers with 2 attack and long-range
B.) Something with 4 attack that got Stealth from Behind the Ferns
C.) Something can give another card an ability/type/etc and Wandering Mimic, Liberty Gryphon, Masked Raccoon, etc are not allowed to account for it when performing their self-given ability checks
What this fixes:
1.) Something to do with Midori
Further strange, based on #1
D.) Picture two units, both of which have resist. Unit A doesn’t get Midori buff. Unit B gets Midori buff.
In my opinion, the level of weirdness goes C, D, A/B
Rather:
4a. Being in the Scavenger, Technician, or Lookout patrol slot does not grant an ability
Don’t give the thing in Lookout an ability, just have it as an additional check. Anything that wants to target the thing in Lookout slot has to get through a ‘magical barrier’ that costs an extra gold to get through. (Which is what ‘Lookout patrol slot does not grant an ability’ means. If I wanted someone to thing that Lookout gave something resist 1 then I would use different wording besides “does not grant an ability” which seems (at least to me) to be saying that it does not grant an ability to the thing in the Lookout slot.)
I don’t see any reason that Elite slot can’t give its attack bonus in the normal attack bonus layer:
Apply bonuses or penalties to ATK or HP (from runes, cards in play, and resolved spells)
5a. The order doesn’t matter
You get Midori buff this way, you don’t have any of A, B, C or D as potential board states.
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I feel that all this bending backwards in order to have an Lookout get the Midori buff can just be handwaved by having the Resist 1 apply to the patrol slot instead of the unit, and have targeting patrol slots be a proxy for targeting the units themselves. To target an unit in the Resist slot, the opponent has to pay as they are targeting a slot with Resist to have the spell/ability apply to the unit, but the unit itself does not possess that ability. So there will be two types of patrol slots: SQL and Elite, which modify the units’ stats directly, and the other three, which possess an ability themselves that is triggered when the unit inside dies or gets targeted. There will be no patrol slot that modify unit abilities.
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But this isn’t right, because of the thing about mimic and crypt crawler, which specifically had something to do with the order things were played in.
The argument was about ordering, but sharpo’s ruling specifically ignored ordering, unless I misread the conclusion of that.