I think all we’re saying is that Second Chance chooses what it returns on resolution, rather than upon the trigger activating. I don’t think that’s necessarily problematic - there are lots of spells and effects which do this. Obliterate is perhaps the most obvious example where it actually matters, but actually in Codex targets are always chosen on resolution, rather than when effects are triggered (this is different to most other card games, I think). Second Chances is extremely unusual in that it chooses at random (for reasons I don’t understand at all - why not just let the active player choose like in every other case where there are multiple possible things that might be affected by a spell/effect?), so I don’t think there are any other precedents for this.
Here’s an actual Sentry question: Suppose multiple patrollers are damaged at once. Do you randomly choose a patroller to prevent damage to, or do you randomly choose a point of damage to be prevented, effectively causing patrollers to be weighted by how much damage they received? I.e. in the case where one patroller takes 2 damage and another patroller takes 1 damage (like via Ember Sparks, say), are their chances of having a damage to them prevented 1/2 & 1/2 or is it 2/3 & 1/3?
I agree with this. What I’m saying is that the list of things it can return doesn’t seem like it would be made on resolution.
i.e.
Time X, lots of stuff leaves play at the same time; the list of everything that left play is made
Time X+Y, SC#1 resolves
SC asks the game for the list of things which left play together.
The game gives SC the list it made at time X, since that’s when the leaving happened.
There is no ‘updated’ list that only has valid targets remaining, the only the list that exists is the one made back at time X, when all the things left play together.
SC is asking for that list, so it can choose randomly from it.
I don’t see any reason for making a new list at time X+Y of:
What’s left to choose from based on the list made at time X
That’s the part I don’t understand.
You choose a patroller at random from among the patrollers. So 1/2 and 1/2.
I don’t understand why you think that a list of the game state when the effect was initiated is relevant. For example, if I cast Sacrifice the Weak, it should kill the weakest target when it resolves, not whatever the weakest target was when the effect was added to the queue. Likewise, if a unit with a -1/-1 rune dies when maxband Orpal is in play, and some effect returns that unit to play before Orpal’s maxband resolves, it should be a legal target for Orpal’s maxband, even though it wasn’t in play when the effect triggered.
I guess what I’m saying is for some reason you seem to want the list of potential targets to be ‘saved’ when the ability joins the queue, whereas I don’t think there’s any effect in the game which works like that, Every other effect chooses from it’s potential targets when it resolves. I realise this effect is slightly unusual in that it chooses at random, but I’m not sure why that should effect when the potential targets list is decided on…
Cosier is right that Second Chances has to do some locking in of eligible targets when it is enqueued. If some units leave play in a way eligible for Second Chances, then immediately some other unit leaves play in a way that would be eligible for Second Chances while Second Chances is waiting around to do its thing, Second Chances would not help the latter unit no matter what.
There’s no other ability in the game that works like this because no other ability in the game tries to do what Second Chances is doing. Normally if there’s a triggered ability that affects a certain thing, it locks in what it affects when it is enqueued, and normally if there’s an ability that lets you choose, it lets you choose from a broad class of things during resolution.
Second Chances says “Whenever one of your non-token units leaves play from something other than combat damage, return it to play. Once-per-turn.” I am interpreting this to mean something like “Whenever one or more of your non-token units leaves play from something other than combat damage and this ability hasn’t triggered this turn so far, return one of them to play.” It seems like that ability locks in the set of eligible units (“one of them”) when it triggers.
For Cosier’s concern about choosing units that aren’t there anymore, let’s again think about what we would do if the card said “Whenever one or more of your non-token units leaves play from something other than combat damage and this ability hasn’t triggered this turn so far, return one of them to play.” With this text we have to choose the unit (not decide at random) during resolution. If we locked in a set of {Skeleton Javelineer, Thieving Imp} when we enqueued it, but the Javelineer was gone, we would still have to choose something. This is true in the same way that a player cannot choose a target for Orpal’s maxband that was around when the maxband triggered but is not around during its resolution. I think that choosing randomly vs. not choosing randomly should not change that.
I see, thank you!
If Second Chances rescues an ephemeral unit as it’s leaving play at end-of-turn, will that unit try to die again, or is the end-of-turn event a once-per-turn trigger?
it will not try to die again until the next turn
I recall reading somewhere in this thread that “is destroyed” and “dies” are synonymous for units (although my attempts to search for it failed). The rulebook says that if a token ever leaves play, it’s destroyed. Does that mean that casting Undo on a token will cause it to trigger “dies” effects like Captured Bugblatter or Technician?
Opponent has Midori midband + any unit with 1 damage. I cast polymorph: squirell. Does unit die?
No. It is 2/1 due to midori
See Post #2 in this thread, last detail bullet.
Basically, checking for death from damage exceeding HP is the last thing the game does after looking at all the other modifiers. (:
No, it doesn’t. For a unit to trigger ‘dies’ effects, it has to leave play and be heading for the discard pile. Whether it reaches the discard pile or not doesn’t matter (tokens will be trashed before they get there, lots of other effects will send the card somewhere else), but it has to have been heading there.
The same occurs if you bounce a token with Stewardess out of the Patrol zone. It gets destroyed (due to being unable to join your hand), but you don’t get the bonus and bugblatter won’t trigger.
Do “at end of turn” effects (Bloodrage Ogre, Trashing due to Quince’s Midband ability, Ephemeral, etc) happen before or after “until end of turn” effects (Manufactured Truth, Rampant Growth, etc.) wear off? Or is it active player’s choice?
“At end of turn” happens a short, but noticeable step before the turn ends (and “Until End Of Turn” effects wear off).
i.e. Rampant Growth armor is still around to prevent damage from Bloodlust.
Players do not get a choice in the order they happen.
That is not necessarily true. I haven’t seen a clarification on this timing before. Do you have some particular quote or reference? Until and At could be interpreted either way.
“At end of turn” is generally a phrase for triggered abilities that happen during your turn, right before it ends. “Until end of turn” is generally a phrase for continuous effects that expire as your turn ends.
I enjoyed playing few matches with Anarchy Present X
Using Sanatorium (i keep reading it insanitarium for some reason) to bring Lizzo then max band Geiger to bring it again for total 8 base damage was delicious.
Is this correct.
Sanatorium brings two immortals. Thet will just keep exhausting at the end of every turn.
I can attack with them every turn. But I cannot patrol with them at all