When tokens go to your hand (or any other zone besides in play), they cease to exist. So they will not trigger things like the Scavenger or Technician bonuses, but they are effectively destroyed, yes.
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That’s right. Rewind wipes tokens out.
Also, all references to tokens being “destroyed” when they leave play are WRONG. Tokens that return to hand cease to exist, but they do not trigger any effects that look for units being “destroyed.”
I was going through the rules questions thread on the old forum, and stumbled across something but I don’t know if it was amended. Do Sacrifice the Weak, Hooded Executioner, and Obliterate effects entirely skip Indestructible units like Hardened Mox & Immortal?
Sacrifice effects do skip them, because part of the rules text for Indestructible says you can’t sacrifice them. I think Obliterate still works since that is a destroy effect, I’m not 100% on that though.
Yeah, that was my intuition and it’s how my CAFS game played out. Though the last thing I saw from @sharpobject on the topic said:
Death Rites, Hooded Executioner, and Obliterate don’t hit immortal at all.
with a little follow up a few posts later in:
Also note that Hooded Ex isn’t a Sacrifice effect, but I’m pretty sure it still skips Mox. Which lends credence to the idea the Obliterate does as well.
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It doesn’t have to use the sacrifice word in order to skip. The effects sharpo mentioned try to make things end up dead, things that won’t end up dead are skipped. Codex doesn’t use key words really, but generally sacrifice is something you do to your own units.
Re-post from previous site:
Rules for Layers (please comment if anything is wrong, and incorporate into the official FAQ if everything is correct. Thanks.)
To determine the attributes (attack, defense, abilities, card types (eg illusion), and tech level) of a unit or hero, follow this ordering. Note that none of this applies to calculating Armor.
- Start with the values actually printed on the card.
1a. If the unit is a token, start with the values as defined by the spell or ability that created it (this should match what is printed on the official tokens)
1b. If the unit was created as a Dancer token and has been “flipped over” its printed stats are 2 ATK, 1 DEF, Unstoppable, Neutral Tech 0 Token Unit.
1c. For a Hero, only the ATK and DEF values appropriate to their current level are considered to exist. Only the abilities at their current level or earlier levels exist. - If a Chaos Mirror, Polymorph: Squirrel, or a “copy” effect apply to the unit or hero, apply each instance of them in the order they were played.
2a. Being a Token or not can not be copied
2b. If the original was under the effects of Chaos Mirror and/or Polymorph Squirrel at the time of the copy effect, the printed attributes of the copy are considered to be the modified stats of the original
2c. Each effect overwrites the previous, where applicable
2d. Chaos Mirror creates two separate effect: Set the ATK of unit/hero #1 to be X, and set the ATK of unit/hero #2 to be Y; X and Y are the printed ATK (as modified by prior Step 2 effects) of #2 and #1, respectively. - Apply any effect that set attack and defense to specific values (ie Faerie Dragon)
- Apply any effects that say a unit or hero “gains” or “has” an ability, if they are not dependent on the ATK or HP of that unit or hero.
4a. Being in the Scavenger, Technician, or Lookout patrol slot does not grant an ability - Apply bonuses or penalties to ATK or HP (from runes, cards in play, and resolved spells)
5a. The order doesn’t matter
5b. Doubling Barbarian modifies this step for positive modifiers only - If ATK or HP is negative after all effects are applied, treat it as 0.
6a. Pestering Haunt re-sets its ATK to at most 1 - Apply any effects that say a unit or hero with particular Attack or HP stats “gains” or “has” an ability
7a. Bluecoat Musketeer gains long-range if it has 1 ATK
7b. Behind the Ferns gives Stealth to anything with 3 ATK or less
After applying all the above steps, if a unit or hero has damage markers equal or greater than its HP, it is destroyed.
If a unit or hero exists in play with 0 HP and no damage markers on it, and destroying it does not change the game state at all, then leave it as is. This can happen to Indestructible units, or a Gilded Glaxx.
Key results of the above implementation:
If you level up a hero who is under the effects of a Chaos Mirror, neither unit/hero affected by Chaos Mirror will have its attack changed.
If you Chaos Mirror a Polymorphed unit and another unit, you swap 1 ATK with the other unit’s attack
If you Polymorph something, it starts getting the bonus from Midori’s Mid-band.
If you copy or Chaos Mirror something with a Feather Rune, you get the underlying stats, and the Faerie Dragon overwrites the effects if you use it on a copy or Polymorph target, regardless of the order of application.
Faerie Dragon always applies before Runes or other boosts, regardless of the order they were played in.
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Is there a #8 for something like the Makeshift Rambaster, which as I recall can be given stealth by Behind the Ferns even if someone has played Charge on it, and it’s attacking a building?
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At the time the attack declaration is made, Steam Tank (and Rambaster) are not getting the attack bonus from their own ability, so Behind the Ferns might give them Stealth (depending on what other bonus are in place). When damage is dealt, they do have their attack bonus, so they will not have stealth, but that only matters in the case of a tower that has already detected something being able to damage them.
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I am relatively new to Codex (didn’t get PnP, no PbP experience). This past weekend I taught 3 friends the game (all of whom came from varied gaming backgrounds). There were several questions we encountered.
I have a couple rules clarification questions. I resolved them as best I could (in the way I thought most appropriate, most fair, or most likely) in the moment, but was unable to point with 100% certainty to the underlying rules to give assurance to my friends.
First, my friend who was playing the Purple faction did not intuitively understand the max-band ability of Prynn (or the similar ability on the Ebbflow Archon). His issue was that the cards say “Remove a time rune” as the cost, but it does not specify “Remove a time rune from this card”, so he was of the opinion he should be able to remove time runes from other cards to pay for their abilities.
I assured him that I knew that was not how they work (I used the example of the Tricycloid, which I knew would remove its 3 counters to ping for 3 damage when it entered). I also used the argument of logic: if Prynn’s maxband ability allowed her to remove time runes off of forecasted future units, it would be incredibly broken. I was not readily sure how to more solidly resolve his question.
I am also unsure about the interaction between Midori’s midband ability and Moss Ancient’s squirrels. Do the squirrels get the +1/+1 or not? Do the squirrels lose the +1/+1 because the Ancient gives them abilities?
There were 2 other questions I can’t remember at the moment. I texted the guys asking if they remembered. I will post again here when I come up with those other questions. I have played 19 games in the past week, so everything is starting to blend together a little bit.
All said though, I absolutely love this game and am glad I have a bunch of friends who did too!
Edit:
If there’s a unit in technician or scavenger slot, what specifically triggers “Dies”?
- Does “trash”?
- Does “return to hand”?
- Does “return to hand” on a token trigger death?
- What about with heroes… Origin Story or Snapback? Or only damage & death effects?
Edit to partially answer my Edit:
Reading the card specific ruling document linked in first post, I see that Undo does not trigger death (even in the case of tokens?)
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The time runes must come from Prynn to use Prynn’s maxband, you were correct.
The squirrels do not get the +1/+1 because of the Moss Ancient giving them haste and invisible, correct.[quote=“Archon, post:219, topic:146”]
If there’s a unit in technician or scavenger slot, what specifically triggers “Dies”?
[/quote]
Dying happens when a unit or hero has more damage than life, or is destroyed. Trashing is not dying. Returning to your hand is not dying. If a token is returned to your hand, it does go there, but then immediately ceases to exist - this is also not dying. Origin Story and Snapback do not cause death either.
Correct. Hope that helps!
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@archon Time runes: Tinkerer is the negative proof of your friends argument I think. If any card that interacts with time runes could use any other card, then why would tinkerer need the specific wording to allow it to interact with any card? Put another way, “remove a time rune from this card” is shortened for space concerns to “remove a time rune.”
Midori’s midband only effects units that are currently not being granted any abilities. Squirrels get abilities while moss ancient is in play, but stop getting this abilities when moss ancient leaves play.
Dies is triggered when a card goes to the discard (and only the discard, brave knight) due to sacrifice, destroy, or having 0 health remaining. Leaving play for any other reason or not going to the discard is not dieing. Tokens that go anywhere other than in play (or forecasted for Vir’s Mech) cease to exist, which is also not dieing and works exactly like in magic.
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Note that Reteller of Truths and Graveyard do still allow “death” effects to trigger, even though the card ends up somewhere else.
Look for the key word “instead” to know when a unit does not trigger death effects.
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Woops right you are EricF.
Once played, do upgrades last forever?
Yes, unless they are destroyed/trashed by another effect
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Like I said, Brave Knight doesn’t “die” because the word “instead” was used. Compare the text to Reteller of Truths.
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Oh. I got that completely wrong then. Thanks!
I just checked the Codex ruling, and saw that :
This example is kinda bad because Justice Juggernaut can’t patrol. What about changing this example with an Insurance Rune one ?
Does a mirrored Justice Juggernaut has “2 lives” too, even when targeted ? I think that it would but I’m not 100% sure