Rules Questions thread

[sharpobject]

@ARMed_PIrate

1. Casting most spells, or playing “stand-alone” abilities off an in-play card (like, say Vandy’s spell-fetch, Tri-Cycloid’s direct damage ability, or the Sacrifice to flip ability on Harmony), are actions and have to be completely resolved before any other triggered effects can happen in response to them.

This is generally correct.

There are unfortunately two sorts of things actually written on cards that have to go faster to work. Smoker’s return to hand ability and the game rule that says Illusions die when targeted must happen *right* when things are targeted. Also, triggered abilities that pull cards out of your discard pile (Graveyard, Second Chances, Reteller of Truths) somehow have to cut in line enough to prevent you from shuffling the card they want to pull out into your deck first.

@ARMed_PIrate

2. BUT, passive effects–often referred to in this thread as “triggered abilities”–including the “whenever” gold-steal on Taxman, the “whenever” Dancer-creation on Harmony, and the two effects created by Promise of Payment (you don’t finish its abilities immediately; they “stay around” waiting for their triggers)–DO NOT have to be completely resolved at the moment of their trigger before all other effects: other effects that had the same trigger or another trigger that occurred simultaneous with that trigger (such as Scavenger bonus in the case of Taxman) can be resolved first, at the active player’s discretion.

Not all passive effects are triggered abilities. A triggered ability is an ability that watches for an event, and enqueues some action when that event happens. “Pay its gold cost during your next upkeep or lose the game” is a triggered ability. “The next card you play this turn costs 0” is not.

@ARMed_PIrate

The way in which Sirlin made that ruling seemed to say that there is space between two abilities on a spell (Earthquake) during which things can happen, which confused a lot of folks because the ruling on Shadow Blade seemed to equate to “There is no space between the abilities: resolve both, then move on to anything either triggered.” It seemed to open up for debate the idea of when triggered effects resolve.

The only explanation is that “Base takes damage when Tech building is destroyed” is not a passive triggered effect like the Technician bonuses (which, as already discussed, wait for spells or other actions to resolve fully), but is instead a unique thing. The base somehow takes damage not after the Tech building is destroyed, or triggered by its destruction, but simultaneous to its destruction. If I understand correctly, it’s the only effect like this in the game, as all other passive triggered effects have to wait for the current action to resolve fully before taking effect.

There are lots of things that will happen between clauses of a spell, or between the last clause of a spell and the spell being moved to your discard pile. You can read some of them here Rules Questions thread - #1020 by sharpobject. They correspond approximately to “State based actions” in MtG, but MtG checks state based actions less often than Codex does.

Also note that continuous effects such as the buffs on Two Step and Master Midori will begin applying or stop applying at this speed, which could cause you to have more “state based actions” to deal with. Your Nimble Fencer might die before the 2nd clause of Final Smash because Two Step stopped giving it +2/+2 when your Tenderfoot died during the first clause of Final Smash.

@ARMed_PIrate

Complication #2:
“Arrives” abilities. When you recruit a unit with an “Arrives” ability, do you have to have to finish the “Arrives” ability before any other abilities triggered by the unit’s arrival?

You can choose any order for these abilities, because they all triggered at the same moment. They will all happen after the action of playing the card is over. If you have Blooming Ancient and you play Argagarg, you can get the +1/+1 rune first or the Wisp first.

@ARMed_PIrate

Complication #3
Leveling a hero is one of the actions you can take on your turn (just like summoning a hero, recruiting a unit, using a “stand-alone” non-triggered active ability on a hero/unit/building). But it can also happen as a triggered effect from another hero dying.
If you max a hero with “Max level” ability (like Zane’s shove), do you have to fully resolve that before it can trigger anything else? (Statement 1)
Or are “Max level” abilities triggered abilities that can be ordered at the discretion of the active player (Statement 2).

Killing an enemy hero awards levels immediately. So if I Doom Grasp your Technician Argagarg, I will get 2 levels on Garth before you draw a card. This particular timing issue doesn’t really matter as far as I can tell, but it’s more consistent to say that this game rule is a “state based action” and happens right away like the other game rules (tokens in your hand go away, tokens in your discard go away, stuff with lethal damage marked dies, etc.) than to let it wait like triggered abilities printed on cards.

You can order “Max Level: X” abilities and other abilities that trigger at the same time however you like. I think the only way you could get a hero’s “Max Level: X” ability to trigger simultaneously with some other ability is to play Metamorphosis.

@ARMed_PIrate

I assume what is true for “Max level” would be the same as for “Arrives”.

Yep!

@ARMed_PIrate

I apologize for not having specific examples here; they may not exist. I’m trying to get at the hard-and-fast rules underpinning the system.

Good!

In some places (like Graveyard, Second Chances, and Reteller of Truths) nobody has yet forced me to make up the particular way things happen, but these places are rare.