Ignorance is in the nash apparently
It seems to me that the chances of RNG use becoming ubiquitous are pretty slim, regardless of whether or not they are banned. From what I’ve seen, even when the community are discussing RNG use with no reference to your opinion and ban, there are only a few players who actually want to use them. Most competitive players either see RNGs as too much hassle or think they interfere with reading the opponent or whatever. And more than just not wanting to use them, these arguments are put forward by successful, competitive players for why RNGs are disadvantageous to use.
I wasn’t around from the start of the original RNG debate so my reading on their popularity might be wrong.
That is very good to hear!
So @vengefulpickle we can summarize like this: in yomi everything should be done by mind, but taking notes is allowed. Hence the “last reveal” tracker is okay, the probability calculator is not.
@Attilian i think you are kind of missing the point of what Sirlin said. Is not a matter of how popular RNG is/was, or the odds that it becomes or not part of a meta play style.
Is it about it being illegal in F2F and against the spirit of the game and the intentions of the creator.
This simply means that like everything else it has to be banned and considered “against the law of the game” and dedicated players should percieve it as a bad thing.
I am not interested in discussing if RNG is good or not (imho is not, first because proactively calculating all odds endgame is a massive pain in the neck, secondly cuz if i would lose acting on RNG i feel dumb for not following my gut, if i win i would feel empty since even knowing the odds i would lack the grit to take a game important decision and rely on randomness) like i am not interested in discussing if pickpocketing is popular or not or in finding a clear definition of racial slurs. I know it should not be done, hence i do not do it.
Sirlin made more than one point. He talked about how he sees RNGs as against the spirit of the game like you are talking about, but he he also specifically referred to what he would do if their use became popular. I quoted and responded to that second point, not the first one.
For somebody who is supposedly not interested in discussing the ethics of RNG use you do a lot of talking about the ethics of RNG use.
No, he means good as in advantageous.
Chill out, dude. Maybe i should have said “in further discussing”. That is what i meant.
Yet once again you miss the point. I do a “lot of talking” because a) is illegal b) there are some ppl that like to say preposterous stuff like “if is not enforceable then do not ban it”.
I think you made pretty clear that we can’t see eye to eye on the matter, and where i condemn a breaking of the rules, you just accept it.
I have no idea how to quote posts on this forum software. I’ll get by.
You bring up two main points about why RNG should not be used. One is you say it is not the creators intent. That has actually never mattered in any game ever created. When Street Fighter 2 was made, combos were NOT INTENDED to be in it. People discovered you could do it though. Did they stop? Hell no, and combos are now a hallmark of fighting games (look at Yomi)! In Super Smash Bros Melee, the game was NOT intended to be played the way it is played now (no items, only a couple stages allowed). Wavedashing was not intended to be in the game. Nintendo felt so strongly that people were playing their game wrong that they refused to support or sponsor any sort of tournament that used these rules. Did people stop? Hell no. It is now one of the longest surviving and most popular games in the FGC, and Nintendo has since come around and at the very least not attempted to quash the tournament scene. Once the game is out of the designers hands designer intent is nice to know, but meaningless. A game lives and dies by the players.
Secondly you say RNG should not be in the game because YOU PERSONALLY would not feel right putting your final decision in the hands of a die. That is also completely irrelevant. The game is not about you. I do not want to use RNG for that exact reason (in fact, I also hate the way people play Smash Bros) but my personal feelings do not matter on how other people play either game.
RNG is not banned now and almost nobody uses it (AFAIK). This alone should say how appealing it is to most people and the likelihood there will be a sea change to “all RNG, all the time”. It’s not a scourge on the game, it never has been, it never will be.
I misunderstood your use of the word “good,” you were using that word in the sense of meaning “useful.” That makes more sense given your argument.
No, that is a gross misrepresentation. The tournament rules regarding RNG use that the creator of the game thinks are essential are different to what a large proportion (maybe a majority) of the competitive community thinks. That isn’t because of a blank acceptance of cheating, it is because of a difference of opinion on the whole point of the game and the practicalities of its competition.
When it comes to things like falsifying identity in competition; collusion; coaching; interfering with the opponent’s ability to play and so on, then the vast majority of the community support unenforceable bans and retrospective action. This is because we see a difference between RNG use and those other activities.
Sirlin doesn’t see it that way. Okay. RNG use isn’t very popular anyway even when people ignore his opinion, so that’s fortunate. (It is possible that RNG use is unpopular purely because of Sirlin’s position on it, I’m open to that idea if there is evidence for it.)
Also, if you are implying that I said “if it’s not enforceable then don’t ban it” then that is incorrect. I was very careful with the words I chose because the issues are a lot more nuanced than that.
If note-taking is allowed, then what are the chances we might see the Yomi online app upgraded to provide a tracking system that is easier for the players than scrolling through the log or writing down notes? Something like Pickle’s (but part of the same app, not something separate to keep open and switch back and forth from), or even just keep the “view opponent’s hand” button visible the entire game but only show those known cards and the rest just the back sides?
If the intent of allowing such notes is to test “how we interpret the publicly available information”, then why not make that information readily available to the players equally? (By equally, I mean make it so playing Grave, Menelker, Perse is not more tedious than playing the remaining cast.) Let me rephrase Attilian’s quote then to say “it is more interesting to test how we interpret the publicly available information than it is to test how quickly we keep track of that information”.
I understand this is exactly what Pickle’s program intends to do. My thoughts were more along the lines of why not make it official and make it part of the Yomi online app itself and encourage it’s use (if, indeed, it’s allowed–Leontes didn’t really seem to address that at all) rather than keep it “hidden” and used among the elite?
Hmmm, idk man. The practical answer is surely that so far resources are already spread thin, and everything is being invested in the making of FSFG, so any update is off the table.
In theory you are right, since many good players are known to track the played cards during an important match. That said, i think that for a newcomer having to learn innates, effects, interactions and MUs is already a big burden (fun and hype as you want, but still requires lots of practice and time) if you add from the scratch the “keep track of known info” even slow timer would still be too fast, and imho the game lenght and apparent data management could seem overwhelming
It’s easier on computers than on phones/tablets, but if you highlight part of someone’s post a button should pop up next to the highlighted text that says Quote.
Yes, those were actually my words, and I walked them back later in the thread.
I continue to disagree that using an RNG is meaningfully different from playing without one, and is in any way comparable to a “cheat.” I think that fundamentally misunderstands how they would be used at a high level of play. I’m confident that picking Troq at character select will have a greater effect on your winrate than using an RNG properly.
I also think it’s not productive to engage Sirlin on this topic, especially since its a purely theoretical discussion anyway. As far as I know, none of the players who do well in tournament at this point use it.
I do think it’s funny that RNG use is actually easier to use face-to-face than in the online client. Just put the preferred mix of cards from your hand into a pile, shuffle them, and play the top card.
As Legion said, developer resource constraints are one reason.
The bigger reason is that this would fundamentally change the experience of playing online Yomi vs playing offline Yomi. Note taking is allowed in offline Yomi, but you still have to respect the timed nature of the game, remember to take the notes consistently, remember to update them, take them correctly (ie. remember what suit of ace your opponent powered up for, not just that they got an ace), etc. The same is true of online Yomi - my opponent’s discard is always available to me (as is my own), but it doesn’t do me any good if I don’t check it when it’s important to do so.
“Being aware of as much information as you can” is a skill that Yomi wants to test in both online and offline formats. Memorizing that information is not.
To my knowledge, out of the top 20 players (according to elo) two have been known to use RNG. That is 10 percent. I have a suspicion that even the most known abuser was less reliant than he seemed.
Those two players are no longer active. Currently, we are at 0% known active users. Instead of devolving into an RNG reliant game, we are evolving into the opposite. I have no idea why we are chasing ghosts.
This is the salient point for me. Someone doing this face to face would still be playing the game as intended. Seeking to ban someone and/or discredit their tournament record because they did this would seem utterly ridiculous.
I’ve made no secret of the fact that I use index cards, Notepad and spreadsheets to keep track of all information when I play Perse.
At one point I even made a program detailing the odds of each card being in hand! I retired it cause it was useless tho.
I approve of pickle’s project.
Anyone used this with iOS? I can’t seem to get it to work, and I think I’ll need to start tracking cards in opponents hand somehow. Otherwise, I don’t think I’ll ever beat Quince.
I recently changed it to use ctrl-click for removing a card from hand, to make it faster/more accurate than cycling when on the desktop. That doesn’t work on mobile, though. I can probably add a toggle to switch back to the other version of the controls.
Is there any way to make a card go back to not being in hand or discard? The one time I tried using it in a game I misclicked the wrong suit for a card and couldn’t undo it.