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#42

More than just the technicality I was able to assemble on the fly, I wanted to express my opinion of the spirit of the thing. It’s fine with me however people want to track known vs. unknown. I don’t even hit the + sign to track who powered up for what and with what cards or look at discards (at least often).

Maybe that makes me a shitty player worthy of ridicule. If enough people come down on me for this then I’m just gonna shut up and wear beige.


#43

No mate, is just the next level. If i have 2 aces as degrey, i pu once and strictl play only the known ace so u do not know that i have 2 more for a naked AA. So when u try throwing i reveal A(known)+A (unknown). Then u feel safe and attcck only to discover that i still had a third ace dodge. If i instead play AA both unknow u do know that there is still the pud one missing. Do not worry, I too started not considering the discard check/log check, etc. The more u play, the more u love the game, the more u wanna win fair and square and do the extra mile!
At least, I did like this :wink:


#44

Given that you were my mentor 2+ years ago, I appreciate your words. If I didn’t already love this game, I would have been gone long ago. For now, I have to sit back, take in the responses, and take an honest look at what triggered me about this topic and maybe check the log more often.:grinning:


#45

I wouldn’t use a notebook in a FtF match, but I also would be able to focus fully on the game, which I can’t do given the realities of my life right now when I’m playing online matches. That said, if the overall feeling is that an app like this is against the spirit, then I’d take this one down, and take my lumps playing online.


#46

I think @Leontes would be the best person to make a call here, seeing as he’s both the public face of Sirlin Games and an IYL champion.


#47

For what it’s worth, there was an official Sirlin Games document that outlined Sirlin’s rules for how official tournaments for his games (Yomi, Puzzle Strike, Flash Duel) should be played. Unfortunately I cannot seem to find it right now :sob: BUT my memory is that that document explicitly allowed for players to use note-taking tools in face-to-face games (e.g.: using a pen and paper to write things down).

So, I think the Word of God on this topic would be:

  • Tool that lets you take notes on what the opponent has played and keep track of the game state? Totally fine.
  • Tool that lets you use RNG to decide your move? Against the spirit of the game.

#48

Yes, I remember that being part of that document. I nearly mentioned it myself, but I wasn’t in a position to look for it at the time. I think I’ll see if I can find it again now.

Edit: Got an archive from the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20160314035236/https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2187212/fsx/SirlinGamesOrganizedPlay_1.1.pdf

It’s worth noting that it’s an old document, to the point where 2nd Edition wasn’t a thing yet. Still, here’s the relevant section:

Taking Notes
Players are allowed to take written notes during a match and may refer to those notes while that match is in progress. At the beginning of a match, each playerʼs note sheet must be empty and must remain visible throughout the match. The games are more fun without notes, and relying on your unconscious instincts might actually take into account more information than the limited notes you would take, but use them if you must.


#49

I will shut up and wear beige for now. This has been long enough to gauge how I feel about this topic. Done.


#50

One reason that non-enforceable bans are a problem is because they create an advantage for somebody who is willing to break the rules. With an enforceable ban if you break the rules you lose the gains you make because of the penalties that follow. Non-enforceable bans encourage breaking the rules, so they cause the opposite of what you want to happen.

I agree that the Yomi community is great (the best online gaming community I’ve come across), but I think the idea that 99% would adhere to a ban that is non-enforceable is just not how humans work.


#51

I’m a big fan of note taking and RNGs myself. Even in f2f games I use RNGs based on whatever I have available - pen and paper, discard pile, draws, hand shuffling, etc. Although I play so little f2f that my experiences in that regard aren’t very informative.

This tool is great as it is so far. It looks great on Chrome on my iPad. Really clean and responsive. Well done @vengefulpickle, once again you have gone above and beyond.

I probably won’t use it myself, because pen and paper is less hassle for me, but I hope the tool works for you. And if you are asked to not make it publicly available (I very much hope that doesn’t happen and I very much doubt it will too) you should definetly still keep using it yourself. Testing our memories of what has happened in a game/set is not remotely as interesting as testing how we interpret the publicly available information.


#52

This tool is bad. It kills Yomi, the IOS/Apple’s killer app. In order to be competitive, I must play on web client (more efficient than the steam version) and use the ipad (might as well have an android) as a second screen exclusively for this new tool. Have you seen Apple’s market cap? @vengefulpickle will be the biggest wealth destroyer of all time. Next, the robots will come with rng lasers. Who really wants to face down these 60/40 dice rolling machines of death?

Edit:

Cool tool. Two thumbs up.


#53

I think of it more as a philosophical question: how can you ban something if you can’t enforce it? For something like “using a dice to determine certain combat reveals”, short of a player stating during or after a match “I used a dice” how would you ever be able to tell that it had occurred? I think in this case it’s a moot point anyway, because I don’t think the outcome of two players of equal skill would be significantly impacted by one player using an RNG and the other not.

An RNG is only going to be as useful as the range of probabilities it expresses: if in a given situation, it’s correct to dodge 30% of the time, and throw 70% of the time, if you use an RNG and assign 50/50 odds to those values, then the RNG is going to hurt more than help. At the end of the day, I don’t think my play would change against a player using an RNG and one who doesn’t - my goal would still be to assess and punish their most profitable play on any given turn.

In a casual match, no. In a tournament match, absolutely? I track recurred cards in hand as much as possible, online and offline. I ask my opponents to spread out their discard so I can see what they’ve played and what they haven’t, and I do the same for my opponents. This comes from my distaste for relying on memory when I could just look at a discard, or at a note. In other words, memory isn’t a skill I want to test when playing Yomi.

This expresses how I feel much more elegantly than I did. To me, Yomi is increasingly a game I enjoy because it is about valuation and bravery, not about card counting.


#54

I appear to have borked the fonts again. Also, having now used it during a match with a bot, the fact that things shift vertically as your hand changes size is terrible. Expect those things to be fixed tomorrowish (turns out, slow test execution cycles at work leave lots of time for yours truly to mess around with side projects).


#55

If ntillerman (and others) were able to use RNGs to any kind of benefit it’s because they were very good at valuation and range estimation in Yomi and also were very mathematically minded. With the infinitely varied gamestates in Yomi I’d bet that 95% of players, myself included, would perform the same or worse if we decided to actually use RNG to decide plays in tournament games.

And I mean, as long as it’s possible to play topdeck hero RNG is never truly banned :stuck_out_tongue:


#56

BTW, what is RNG?

I recall the rulebook specifically stating that you can look through the opponent’s discard. I do not recall anything stating that information can be tracked by writing down or using a computer. But hey, it won’t stop me from continuing to play online against opponents who choose to do so.

Maybe I am too trusting of humans in general to respect an unenforceable ban. :slight_smile:


#57

Oh, sorry! Random Number Generator.


#58

RNG= random numbers generators. Like, instead of using your gut/insight/tactic u say, ok i roll a dice1-2 i play reversal, 3-4 i block, 5-6 i throw. So basically your action is unpredictable violating the spirit of the game (the yomi aka reading the mind of the opponent). Ofc this also means that u roll throw, the opponent (scared) plays his A++ and kills you. Again, is like instead of using brains and instinct, just toss a coin. Imho is dumb, useless and inappropriate. If u wanna go random, go play slots machines.
EDIT:

Hmmm, all competitive card games i played allowed to keep track of the opponents cards via pen and paper, especially if there were spells that allowed u to see the hand. IRL i cannot look at the log for martial mastery, so is fair to take note of the cards :wink:


#59

Claiming that using an RNG doesn’t require brains or displays a lack of brains is laughable.

The things that you are allowed to do are never going to be exhaustively listed in a rule-set unfortunately.


#60

Yeah, I suppose it almost requires one to record the hand if one is playing as Perse or Grave (if you want to do well).

My partner initially thought that Yomi was merely luck and that she could do just as well by playing randomly. We tested it (to the best of our ability which is difficult b/c of As & KD dodges). Thankfully, I was able to demonstrate that it was poor play that way. Of course, it’s a small sample size, but I think it would hold up to extensive testing vs even better players than myself.

I can’t imagine someone who is a fan of the game finding any enjoyment (or success) from using a RNG. Heck, I’m so poor at this game, my opponents probably scratch their head at some of my combat reveals, wondering if I’m doing just that!


#61

Using RNG at a high level emphasizes valuation (to correctly evaluate the range) over yomi. Both are interesting skills, although I think the former is easier to practice.