[MMM1] Warm-Up: Blue (Jadiel) vs Purple (HolyTispon)

Codex Codex play-by-forum
127

Yeah, I can totally see where you’re coming from. I felt dirty doing it.

Manufactured Truth doesn’t keep anything about the base card (not illusion status or anything else). If you turn an Aven into a BK, it still has arrival fatigue (because you didn’t control it at the start of the turn), and it’s considered to be a Tech I card, and not an illusion (so you can target it without it popping). Units still keep any damage or runes, as it’s only the base stats of the card which change.

Here BK attacks with Readiness, which means it doesn’t exhaust. The rules say a unit with Readiness can’t attack more than once each turn. But once he turns into a Stewardess, he doesn’t have Readiness anymore, so that rule no longer applies. For a Stewardess, the only requirements are that it was in play at the start of the turn (so it doesn’t have arrival fatigue) and that it’s not exhausted. As a Stewardess, he fulfills both requirements to be able to attack, and so can attack again. There’s no check in the game when a unit wants to attack to say ‘Has this unit already attacked?’, otherwise Ready or Not and Rampaging Elephant wouldn’t allow multiple attacks either.

On the other hand, if the powers that be had decided that when a unit with Readiness attacks, that creates an effect on that unit which says ‘You can’t attack again this turn’, I would have been fine with that. However, instead they decided that if a unit has Readiness it checks to see if it’s already attacked this turn, and if it has, then it can’t attack again.

I get that it doesn’t feel good though, and my intention is totally not to exploit a rule loophole to do something illegal. I’m happy to replay my turn as if it wasn’t possible to do that (though I doubt that will remove the general bad feeling), or to just call the game here and move on to the next one.

If you’ve had enough, and don’t want to play against me in the series any more, that’s fine too. You’ve showed phenomenal resilience in the face of constant defeat, and I’m happy to hand Blue over to someone else to carry on. I think you probably understand the Purple side of this matchup better than most other players, and you might get a turn to steam-roller someone else too!

128

I’m not mad at you at all. Sorry if it came across the wrong way. I admire your skill and inventiveness and think it’s really impressive that you came up with this play. If it’s a legal move - and it seems to me that the powers that be think it’s legal - than good on you for doing that. Obviously, it’s one of the features of playing on the forums that you get to try a variety of things on a turn in a way that would probably be impossible if we were playing on time or inappropriate if we were playing casually. but that’s how we play on the forums - I’ve tried numerous versions of various turns, and probably abused this much more than you have. So I’m sorry if I came across as mad at you for exploiting a loophole - I think that’s absolutely what you should do, and I think that you do it masterfully. This is a frustration with the game and the game design philosophy - I think that when you do a clever move you’re supposed to feel good about yourself, like you found a new way of thinking of things, not that you were able to abuse a technicality. When I lose, I like to feel like ‘uggh! how come I didn’t see that was an option for him!’ not 'ah, wha? that how it works? ok…'
In any case, I don’t know that a series of games between us would be make for good data for MMM but I’m happy to keep playing. I enjoy purple and I have gathered some experience in the match-up. This game is probably toast but I’m happy to play it out - I generally believe in doing my best to play a game even if I get hammered.

"P1T6

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Vortoss Emblem
Hyperion

STARTING HAND
Now!
Research and Development
Forgotten Fighter
Time Spiral

WORKERS
Plasmodium
Nullcraft
Tinkerer
Ready or Not
Forgotten Fighter

NextHand

Warp Gate Disciple
Neo Plexus
Hyperion
Temporal Distortion

Discard

Fading Argonaut 3/3, fading 3
Time Spiral
Research and Development
Now!
Vortoss Emblem
Hyperion

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($10)
Max Prynn - ($2)
Time spiral adds a rune to Prynn - ($1)
remove 4 runes from Prynn, Hide the insurance agent and pop the mirror
Worker - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 2, draw 4

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]: Mox 2/1A
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]: L 7 Prynn 3/5 1 rune
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • Battle Suits
  • Seer 3/1, disabled
  • Stewardess 3/3, disabled
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Present)

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 1
  • Disc: 6
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 9
    "
129

Unless you’ve used something like Chaos Mirror or Polymorph: Squarrel in which case it’s not the base stats that are copied… I understand there are rulings, and there must be. It’s a matter of judgment whether it’s too much or not, I’m just saying that for me this one of the most frustrating corners of the game. I’ve played this match-up several games and I still don’t have a good feel for what the ruling will be in any case other than looking it up and deferring the ruling provided by the powers that be.

130

I don’t feel like I’m in a great position here…

P2T6

StartingHand Workers

STARTING HAND
Arrest
Injunction
Liberty Gryphon
Bulding Inspector
Liberty Gryphon
Traffic Director

WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Jail
Bluecoat Musketeer
Reputable Newsman
Spectral Aven

NextHand

Community Service
Liberty Gryphon
Insurance Agent
Brave Knight
Manufactured Truth

Discard

Injunction
Liberty Gryphon
Arrest
Bulding Inspector

Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($10)
Exhaust Bigby to draw
Bigby casts Injuction on your Tech I, Stewardess and Seer are disabled - ($7)
Tech III - ($2)
Tech Lab (Truth) - ($1)
Traffic Director - ($0)

Float ($0)
Stash 1, Discard 3, draw 4

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]: Scribe (1/3A)
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]: Traffic Director (1/1, Untargetable)
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • L5 Quince (1/5)
  • L5 Bigby (3/1)
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Law)
  • :heart: Tech III HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech Lab HP: 4 (Truth)

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 1
  • Disc: 4
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 10
131

"P1T7

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Unphase
Now!

STARTING HAND
Neo Plexus
Warp Gate Disciple
Temporal Distortion
Hyperion
Temporal Research

WORKERS
Plasmodium
Nullcraft
Tinkerer
Ready or Not
Forgotten Fighter

NextHand

Hyperion
Temporal Research
Time Spiral
Hyperion
Warp Gate Disciple

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($9)
Prynn fades, you skip the next discard/draw phase but get your insurance agent back
Geiger - ($7)
Hyperion, Mox is trashed - ($2)
Hyperion attacks, killing the Scribe, I draw
Temporal distortion, Hyperion back to hand and Tricycloid is in play - ($0)
Tri kills Bigby, Geiger levels

Float ($0)
Discard 4, reshuffle, draw 5

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]:
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]: Tricycloid, 5/5 (2 runes)
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]:
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • Battle Suits
  • Seer 3/1, disabled
  • Stewardess 3/3, disabled
  • L3 Geiger 2/4
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Present)

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 8
  • Disc: 0
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 9
    "
132
Thoughts

The fact that TD is untargetable is so annoying. Of all the tech 0, this is the one that is worst for me that he drew. I’m happy to have a turn without injunction and my stewardess and seer should be back. Though I didn’t think all of it through - if he puts damage on the Tri, it will be harder to use his ability. But to place 3 damage he’ll have to use his insurance agent as well as the TD, getting both killed. The fact he’s going to skip discard/draw is pretty awesome. He has a lot of draw but I can hopefully delay him a bit and get some damage with Hyperions. Dire state but maybe there’s a shot.

133

P2T7

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Lawbringer Gryphon
Macciatus, The Whisperer

STARTING HAND
Manufactured Truth
Brave Knight
Community Service
Insurance Agent
Lawful Search
Bulding Inspector

WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Jail
Bluecoat Musketeer
Reputable Newsman
Spectral Aven
Bulding Inspector

NextHand

Community Service
Manufactured Truth

Discard

Lawful Search

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($10)
Insurance Agent #2, putting rune on Tricycloid - ($9)
Quince makes a Mirror - ($7)
Liberty Gryphon, Mirror copies it - ($4)
Mirrored Gryphon kills Tricycloid, you get 1g, I get 5g and draw a card - ($9)
Insurance Agent #1 (the one Prynn trashed) trades with Seer
Quince casts Lawful Search on your hand, I rs, draw - ($8)
Liberty Gryphon breaks your Tech II, your base to 18
Quince makes a Mirror - ($6)
Brave Knight, Mirror copies it - ($3)
Worker - ($2)
Quince & Traffic Director deal 2 damage to your base

Float ($2)
No discard and draw

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]: Mirrored Brave Knight (3/3A)
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]: Brave Knight (4/3)
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]: Insurance Agent (2/2)
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • L5 Quince (1/5)
  • Mirrored Liberty Gryphon (5/5)
  • Liberty Gryphon (5/5)
  • Traffic Director (1/1, Untargetable)
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Law)
  • :heart: Tech III HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech Lab HP: 4 (Truth)

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 2
  • Deck: 7
  • Disc: 1
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 2
  • Workers: 11
134

So now that you have a mirror illusions that’s both (a) not a mirror illusion and (b) a mirror illusion. what does that mean for the purposes of the Gryphon? Is it untargetable?

135

Also - since Prynn died from fading last turn, she’s unavailable now - is that correct? If so, that’s GG.

136

Mirrored Brave Knight is an Illusion which is not called Liberty Gryphon, so both Liberty Gryphon and Mirrored Liberty Gryphon are Unstoppable, Unattackable and Untargetable.

Yes, Prynn died during your turn, so you can’t summon her this turn.

GG - that was an interesting game. Your start was very strong (and mine was relatively weak). I think I would attack a lot more with Mox than you do. You seem to want it in defence. On T4, I would definitely have used Mox rather than Plexus to take out BK. And on T6, I would have killed Bigby with Mox.

Do you want to go first for the next game, or shall I?

137

Ok, but here’s the thing - earlier you said that the copied unit is no longer an illusion. But now it is an illusion. So there you have it. It’s really just messy, in my opinion. Could be streamlined…

Anyway, you’re right about killing Bigby on T6 for sure. I didn’t really realize that when I bounced the insurance agent, you had no more patrol. That would have prevented injunction, which is huge. I just missed that. As for T4, you’re right as well. Not sure what I was thinking. Let me think about this a little further and see what we do next. I definitely felt Iike I finally gave you a bit of a fight, but it was still an uphill battle - well played, sir!

138

Although they look similar, Manufactured Truth and Quinces mid/maxband abilities work quite differently.

I take your point that they perhaps should work the same, but for whatever reason they don’t…

139

They don’t just look similarly, the game uses exactly the same language for both of them. They are both governed by ruling regarding ‘copying’ values (e.g. The fact that all modifiers are ignored except for chaos mirror). Yes there are some short comments about the copy being an illusion but there’s no way to know all these differences - especially what is attached to the vs what comes with the copy - without extensive reading of various disparate rulings.

140

Anyway, I understand you’re just trying to explain the game to me, it’s not you I have an issue with (let me know, by the way, if you learn anything about readiness and copying which changes the understanding of the rules).
Feel free to start as P1 at your leisure.

2 Likes
141

P1T1

StartingHand Workers

STARTING HAND
Manufactured Truth
Lawful Search
Spectral Aven
Porkhand Magistrate
Jail

WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate

NextHand

Reputable Newsman
Building Inspector
Bluecoat Musketeer
Traffic Director
Arrest

Discard

Jail
Manufactured Truth
Lawful Search

Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($4)
Worker - ($3)
Spectral Aven - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 3, draw 5

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]:
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]:
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • Spectral Aven (2/2, Flying, Illusion)
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 20

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 3
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 1
  • Workers: 5
142

"P2T1

StartingHand Workers

STARTING HAND
Neo Plexus
Hardened Mox
Nullcraft
Temporal Research
Forgotten Fighter

WORKERS
Temporal Research

NextHand

Fading Argonaut
Time Spiral
Plasmodium
Battle Suits
Tinkerer

Discard

Nullcraft
Hardened Mox
Forgotten Fighter
Neo Plexus

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Tower - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 4, draw 5

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]:
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]:
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]

[B]Buildings:[/B]

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 4
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 1
  • Workers: 6
    "
143

Interesting start!

P1T2

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Brave Knight
Overeager Cadet

STARTING HAND
Reputable Newsman
Arrest
Building Inspector
Bluecoat Musketeer
Traffic Director

WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Bluecoat Musketeer

NextHand

Jail
Reputable Newsman
Brave Knight
Lawful Search
Traffic Director

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($6)
Worker - ($5)
Tech I - ($4)
Bigby - ($2)
Building Inspector - ($1)
Aven hits Tower for 2

Float ($1)
Discard 3, reshuffle, draw 5

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]: Building Inspector (1/1A)
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]: L1 Bigby (2/3)
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • Spectral Aven (2/1, Flying, Illusion)
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 3
  • Disc: 0
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 1
  • Workers: 6
144

I considered building tech 1 in the previous turn and decided against it because I didn’t want to let you get 4 damage on it for the Aven over two turns. A traffic director can then easily finish the job. But you’d think that after all these matches I’ll remember the possibility of a building inspector…

"P2T2

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Stewardess of the undone
Now!

STARTING HAND
Time Spiral
Plasmodium
Battle Suits
Fading Argonaut
Tinkerer

WORKERS
Temporal Research
Plasmodium

NextHand

Forgotten Fighter
Nullcraft
Neo Plexus
Stewardess of the undone

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($7)
Worker - ($6)
Fargo - ($4)
Battle suits - ($2)
Tech 1 - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 2, reshuffle, draw 4

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]:
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]: Fading Argonaut 3/3
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • Battle Suits
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tower HP: 2
  • :heart: tech 1 HP: 5

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 4
  • Disc: 0
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 7
    "
145

P1T3

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Spectral Hound
Spectral Hound

STARTING HAND
Lawful Search
Jail
Reputable Newsman
Brave Knight
Traffic Director
Manufactured Truth

WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Bluecoat Musketeer
Jail

NextHand

Reputable Newsman
Overeager Cadet
Spectral Hound
Arrest

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($7)
Bigby casts Lawful Search on your hand, I draw - ($6)
Brave Knight - ($3)
Bigby casts Manufactured Truth, turning Inspector into a Brave Knight - ($2)
Manufactured Knight trades with Fargo and returns to my hand, you draw
Worker - ($1)
Bigby destroys your Tower, your base to 18
Aven deals 2 damage to your Tech I
Traffic Director - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 2, draw 2, reshuffle, draw 2

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]: Brave Knight (3/3A)
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]: Traffic Director (1/1, Untargetable)
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • Spectral Aven (2/1, Flying, Illusion)
  • L1 Bigby (2/2)
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 4
  • Disc: 0
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 7
146

"P2T3

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Now!
Stewardess of the Undone

STARTING HAND
Forgotten Fighter
Neo Plexus
Nullcraft
Stewardess of the undone
Tinkerer

WORKERS
Temporal Research
Plasmodium
Tinkerer

NextHand

Now!
Now!
Hardened Mox
Forgotten Fighter
Time Spiral

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($7)
Worker - ($6)
Stewardess, bounces the Aven (it dies) - ($3)
Tower - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 3, reshuffle, draw 2

[B]Board Info:[/B]
[B]In Patrol:[/B]

  • :psblueshield: [I]Squad Leader[/I]: Stewardess 3/3A
  • :psfist: [I]Elite[/I]:
  • :ps_: [I]Scavenger[/I]:
  • :pschip: [I]Technician[/I]:
  • :target: [I]Lookout[/I]:
    [B]In Play:[/B]
  • Battle Suits
    [B]Buildings:[/B]
  • :heart: Base HP: 18
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 3
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

[B]Economy Info:[/B]
[B]Cards:[/B]

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 4
  • Disc: 0
    [B]Gold:[/B]
  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 8
    "