Fair enough. It just seemed appropriate for a character who’s “Fading,” but I’ll concede that point. Any more ideas beyond the abilities, then?
I really like the idea of Prynn being able to combo easily but having low damage on all her normal cards overall. This way her “fade” ability is not so abuse able or is this ability balance enough for her to do normal damage at normal speed. Also maybe having high damage on her face cards but having her J be a linker possible name “A Link to the past”?
This was the concept of a rough Bigby deck I drafted last year. It does not just match charge move theme, but also his narrative role of a corrupt judge with preconceived judgments.
4 Likes
Hey, interesting !
Have you a save of your work ? 
1 Like
It wasn’t particularly great but I can try to recover it.
Dusting off this old topic because of some discussion on Discord about how Calamandra might work in Yomi.
[details=Very Long Discord Discussion Inside!]> NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:17 PM
How exactly would Calamandra Moss from #codex play in yomi?
Tossing around a Tiger Uppercut and I suggested 0.1 speed.
What about Tiger assists? We have Kasumi in Tekken to base those off of.
Hobusu - Today at 10:19 PM
I was thinking animal assists in general, but with a focus on tigers.
For example, I think J should be Murkwood Allies (however you want to interpret that).
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:21 PM
Two sides, one that you can pump 3 times with any for as much damage as the other but comes out faster/combos easier?
Hobusu - Today at 10:21 PM
Sounds about right, yeah.
Then Q is Tiger Uppercut (which I’m visualizing as the tiger doing the uppercutting rather than Cala).
GRAG - Today at 10:22 PM
could conceivably have a tiger that works like some combination of 2v2 assist and a Quince thing?
Hobusu - Today at 10:23 PM
@GRAG OK, give me some rough draft of how that might work. I’m curious…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:23 PM
Stalking Tiger/Predator Tiger
GRAG - Today at 10:23 PM
shrug, I dunno ^^
maybe add a Clockwork Soldiers element to it somehow?
landing a super summons a tiger, which can be used at some point later similar to a Quince mirror or 2v2 assist?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:24 PM
maybe has like 10 health but you can use 2s and 3s to attack with it, it takes damage like a Substitute in Pokemon?
GRAG - Today at 10:24 PM
maybe Predator and Stalking tigers each have two different RPS options or something? I dunno
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:24 PM
Hm!
So that’d be…K? A? D?
GRAG - Today at 10:25 PM
could be a separate thing like EX Lum’s side deck
Hobusu - Today at 10:25 PM
I think in that version Predator and Stalking each get their own card, or something.
GRAG - Today at 10:25 PM
she just has two extra cards
Hobusu - Today at 10:25 PM
Or that, I guess.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:27 PM
And she has…what, 65 health alone?
Hobusu - Today at 10:27 PM
No, that’s entirely too low.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:28 PM
yeah.
Hobusu - Today at 10:28 PM
Setsuki has 75, so that’s the bare minimum any character can ever have.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:28 PM
4/5 max level, so he/she definitely keeps up.
Hobusu - Today at 10:28 PM
Menelker’s only tied because of debilitating injury, and that’s everyone in the minimum health club.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:29 PM
Okay.
But relies on…not hiding behind tigers, but for them to even be there for the craziest mixups, combos, and damage.
Hobusu - Today at 10:30 PM
Let’s think about Stalking Tiger.
That doesn’t seem like it would become ongoing on hit to me.
If it hits, then there’s no need to continue stalking, right?
(from IRL tiger’s perspective)
I was thinking that maybe Stalking Tiger (possibly the other too) would become ongoing if the opponent blocks it.
Then it deals extra damage if you hit with certain moves, similar to Oni’s clockwork soldiers, but goes away if… something happens.(edited)
Not sure what makes it go away yet.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:38 PM
Getting dodged or hitting the opponent?
Hobusu - Today at 10:39 PM
That sounds reasonable for a first draft, at least.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:41 PM
Aces though…
Hobusu - Today at 10:42 PM
I think one side of Calamandra’s aces has to be Gigadon.
It’s too iconic to ignore, right?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:44 PM
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAH
Hobusu - Today at 10:45 PM
But how do we capture the variable cost of the Codex version?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:49 PM
…show me the card again?
Hobusu - Today at 10:50 PM
GRAG - Today at 10:51 PM
ace cost is based on current HP?
spend accumulated tigers or frogs to play Gigadon without some sort of penalty?
How does one convert the concept of “board presence” from a CCG-style game into something like a 1v1 fighting game, anyway?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:52 PM
Costing less Aces with Tigers and other summons already on the field.
Heh. Cal brings heavier resource management from her game into yomi!
Hobusu - Today at 10:56 PM
If it’s based on summoning other animals, then all of her specials (or at least most of them) are pidgeon-holed into being summons.
GRAG - Today at 10:57 PM
.oO(Calamandra can’t summon pigeons… yet)(edited)
Hobusu - Today at 10:57 PM
Not saying whether that’s good or bad right now, just that it’s the obvious conclusion.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:03 PM
that need not be a bad thing…Cal is the one it word work for best, I would think
With the possible exception of Vandy Anadrose.
Hobusu - Today at 11:05 PM
Yeah, Calamandra’s uniquely positioned to be a good character for this concept.
The question is which animals do we want her to have?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:05 PM
Mostly Tigers.
Hobusu - Today at 11:05 PM
Definitely tigers and frogs, for starters.
You have to have frogs.
I could see her having Barkcoat Bear as well, but that might be too much?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:07 PM
maybe
Carpe - Today at 11:07 PM
If summons is her focus, maybe you can take inspiration from the Patrol Zone
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:08 PM
if she somehow keeps frogs with her…then can she do 1-3 damage unjokerable off a dodge if she sacrifices one?
Hobusu - Today at 11:09 PM
OK, so what if Murkwood Allies let you attach it and any pump cards you use to Calamandra, then you get the unjokerable damage by sacrificing one of the pump cards (or Murkwood Allies itself if you’re out of pump cards).
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:10 PM
Yes!
And use them for any other fun things you use summons for.
Hm…any 2-10 abilities?
Probably a good A-T-D-B spread…maybe a few less throws. More grabs than combo throws (like Lum).
Hobusu - Today at 11:14 PM
OK, what if the damage from summoned animals can be jokered normally, but you can play Behind the Ferns to make it unjokerable?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:15 PM
Also amps it by…2? 3+2?
But then it is your followup with nothing else added.
Otherwise you could still try and combo.
Hobusu - Today at 11:16 PM
It wouldn’t affect tigers, though. Those are too strong in Codex to be affected.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:16 PM
Only frogs!
Sotek - Today at 11:16 PM
don’t try to restrict things to match too tightly if it makes them dumb
Hobusu - Today at 11:17 PM
Fair enough.
It is an amusing thought, though.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:17 PM
This isn’t exactly matching right now. I don’t think.
Interesting ability to go on a 2 though…
Hobusu - Today at 11:19 PM
So Behind the Ferns is a 2 ability that makes Frogs and Tigers (can Murkwood Allies summon a Beast?) unjokerable and lets them deal additional damage.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:25 PM
MA needs some sort of unpumpable big guy…or at least it could. And BtF could just work on frogs, or others too, but effectively yes. But only as a dodge followup.
Hobusu - Today at 11:26 PM
Maybe the Frog side is a fast Ender and the Beast side is a slow Starter that does the same damage in one hit as the Frogs will do without BtF?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:28 PM
so 5+2 jokered or 5+your attack/throw.
and they do 1+1 (+3any) or 4 damage on initial hit.
Sound right?
Hobusu - Today at 11:29 PM
I’m not quite sure which numbers are which there…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:29 PM
or maybe it doesn’t do dodge followups.
Hobusu - Today at 11:30 PM
To be completely clear, I meant that Beast should do the same in one hit as the maximum number of Frogs would do if all of them hit without Behind the Ferns.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:31 PM
Ah. Uh…
…frogs do 1+1 on initial hit/summon and 3(+2 BtF) dodge followup…beast is 5 and stays to do something?
Hobusu - Today at 11:32 PM
Hm… So if we ignore Ferns for now, you can do a maximum of 4 damage with the frogs when Murkwood Allies hits, then the frogs attach and each do 3 damage as a follow up.
That’s what you’re suggesting right now?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:36 PM
yeah
too much?
I mean you need to think about how fast that can empty a hand
Hobusu - Today at 11:37 PM
True, but I’m just thinking of what can make Beast side not feel useless compared to Frog side.
Frogs can be comboed into, are fast, and can potentially deal up to 20 unjokerable damage from a single Jack (or whatever rank we settle on). On the other hand, Beast can deal 5 damage on hit and comboes into stuff, but that’s not very impressive…
GRAG - Today at 11:39 PM
At this point are we basically just making Jack-O
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:39 PM
well that means all 2s to do 20…
Carpe - Today at 11:39 PM
Pumpkin frogs!
Hobusu - Today at 11:39 PM
I don’t know, GRAG. Are we making Jack-O?
(I’m being serious, BTW.)(edited)
(Don’t know who that is.)
Carpe - Today at 11:40 PM
Jack-O’s whole gimmick is spawning pumpkin houses that summon minions to attack your opponent
Hobusu - Today at 11:40 PM
Oh, okay.
As you do.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:40 PM
it’s basically if we happen to dodge then potential unjokerable damage.
Hm…is Jack-O good flavor here?
Hobusu - Today at 11:41 PM
Right, but have we established what the “faliure state” of these summons is?
Clockwork Soldiers get discarded if you run a face card into a Block, right?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:42 PM
KD?
Hobusu - Today at 11:42 PM
Maybe just getting thrown, since that’s the natural counter to dodging.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:42 PM
get blocked, get dodged? Each one can flee from different things.
Hobusu - Today at 11:43 PM
So the mixup is between Cala cashing in her unjokerable Frogs of Doom and just punching you.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:43 PM
Stalking Tiger runs from getting successfully dodged, remember
yeah!
Hobusu - Today at 11:43 PM
That seems reasonable, then.
So we have two face cards and an ability mostly mapped out, and some idea of the direction we want to take at least one side of her ace.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:45 PM
Should we ask Sirlin if we’re being stupid or if he would have potentially added this if he still could?
Because I think I like the going direction of this.
Hobusu - Today at 11:46 PM
We don’t need to make this official.
Back in 1st edition apparently someone made their own entire cast of Yomi characters, and he was fine with it.
Carpe - Today at 11:46 PM
Oh yeah, I remember seeing that
They even had a poison character
Hobusu - Today at 11:47 PM
I seem to recall that a couple ideas for the Shadows characters came from fan-made characters, too.
Sotek - Today at 11:48 PM
yeah
Gloria. 
Hobusu - Today at 11:48 PM
Also Quince?
Sotek - Today at 11:49 PM
I forget exactly how much of Quince was actually fan-inspired but Gloria’s ace, the thing that makes her a character than functions at all, was entirely fan-inspired, heh.
well, the original version of it.
(The idea of “damage both players”, which is needed for a healing character to not be stupid)
Hobusu - Today at 11:50 PM
Yeah, that was a pretty important part of making her work at all, huh?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:50 PM
I see.
Sotek - Today at 11:50 PM
yeah lol
Hobusu - Today at 11:50 PM
Though it does make Gloria mirrors fun to watch.
Sotek - Today at 11:50 PM
without that ace she would not have been a possible character.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:51 PM
Okay, but I’d like to know if it’s good design from a pro standpoint.
Even for craps and laughs.
Carpe - Today at 11:51 PM
The main issue is that healers as stall characters are really aggravating/degenerate, because their entire game is to just negate yours, and Gloria’s Ace lets you convert that healing into an offensive resource. So yeah, pretty crucial.
Hobusu - Today at 11:52 PM
It’s hard to judge until we’ve fleshed it out enough to be playable, honestly.
Carpe - Today at 11:52 PM
A theorycrafted design will almost never be “good” unless you get incredibly lucky. Rule 1 of game design. 
Hobusu - Today at 11:52 PM
@NiGHTcapD {Shyne} Should one of us post what we have on the forums for archival/making sure we’re on the same page?
Carpe - Today at 11:53 PM
The idea definitely sounds interesting enough
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:54 PM
Yeah. Do it![/details]
This is left “as-is,” except that I made sure nothing was broken (like the link to Gigadon, for example). For now we seem to be closing in on two face cards and a 2* ability, and we have a rough idea of what half of her ace might become.
I just saw this thread and it made me think about Vir in the context of Yomi.
I think it would be pretty great if he had the innate ability to view the top 3 cards of his deck rather than just 1, after all Codex decks are a lot smaller than Yomi decks. I wonder if it might be better to have this ability at the end of turn rather than after he draws? I’m unsure what would slow the game down the least:
Future Sight: [End of Turn / Draw Phase] You may view the top 3 cards of your deck (you may not change the order).
I also imagine giving him “forecasted” facecards (possibly aces?), perhaps fulfilling similar roles as Geiger’s J and Q, and his secondary innate could also let him do more with them in a style that kind of references Geiger’s TD e.g:
Foreseen Strikes: When you win combat with a forecasted attack you may reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. If you do, your combat reveal becomes a 0CP linker, and you may continue your combo. You may include the revealed cards in your combo, any unused revealed cards are discarded.
This could also work really well with a “reach into the future” style ability card, which allows him to draw and/or set up his deck (and yes I gave it a silly name):
Back to the Future: [Draw Phase] Draw 3 cards and fetch a forecasted card from your discard pile, then put 3 cards on top of your deck.
GREAT SCOTT!
I’m imagining he will have 3 or 4CP with powerful but generally slow attacks, which then lets him have the ability “Unphase” somewhere in his kit to help with his problems. I could imagine it as a “forecasted” named dodge (meaning it can be recurred but at the cost of one of his “back to the future” ability cards), with the effect of:
Unphase: [During Combat] On a successful dodge attach this card to Vir. While attached the opponent is 3.0 speed slower. Discard when Vir is hit with an attack or throw.
Maybe it would be better speeding him up though for balance purposes? I’m just trying to riff of the idea that he moves normally but is unphased in time so everyone else would be at a disadvantage fighting him. Also he could be limited to forecasted moves, which would more likely guarantee it didn’t last for too long. He might need a forecasted throw in that case though.
How I see Vir working is flipping face cards and aces. Only one side can actually be played and if it hits it flips and stays in play. If Vir wins the next combat reveal the in-play face card also hits. No matter what happens in the reveal the in-play face card is then discarded.
Example Q:
0.0 speed, 6 damage, can’t combo attack
flipped side
- speed, 10 damage, -
I could see him being a 2cp character. The numbers would require some serious tweaking and balancing.
2 Likes
This is such a cool idea that I don’t care how much tweaking it would take to balance, we need to explore this!
More progress on Calamandra! And with it, another copied log from Discord:
Another incredibly long conversation inside
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:34 PM
@NiGHTcapD {Shyne} I’ve been thinking more about Calamandra, and having Stalking Tiger get discarded if she’s dodged won’t work because Rook exists.
sharpobject - Yesterday at 9:35 PM
what if she is KD
(I dont know what the rest of her character does xd)
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:35 PM
Here’s the copypasta of the brainstorming session for her: Ideas about additionnal characters from Codex lore! - #16 by Hobusu
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:35 PM
oh…crud.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:35 PM
She’s super incomplete, though.
I only realized that because I’m trying to clean it up so we’re on the same page…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:36 PM
dodged or KD…I like that.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:37 PM
The problem with KD is that we said Behind the Ferns ends if she’s thrown, and most characters KD on successful throw.
Also, do Frogs ever get discarded from anything other than damaging the opponent?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:40 PM
uh…on getting hit one leaves?
sharpobject - Yesterday at 9:40 PM
gloria’s cool mode turns off when she is thrown or can’t heal, but most of the time when she is KD it implies she can’t heal
so that is what I am stealing, since it is known that characters in general have enough access to ways to turn off healing sphere
BBB is maybe the worst in the game at “dodge or KD”
on getting hit is on some other character’s cool mode iirc
geiger
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:42 PM
She loses one frog per each “getting hit”, once per combat.
I think her thing is that she has all these different ways of getting help, and all these different ways of losing them; and some characters have better or worse removal options for each animal which can make building up a full-sized army difficult.
sharpobject - Yesterday at 9:44 PM
oh ok
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:44 PM
If she has nothing…what do I get her?
What would be most useful or powerful?
What would I be most able to activate against this foe?
What do I most easily stand to lose without using?
Those kinds of questions would and should be asked during play with a hand full of specials.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:47 PM
On a somewhat related note, I feel like the Frogs are a bit weak if they replace the normal dodge followup. I’m thinking if they deal 2 and you can also followup, and Behind the Ferns adds +3 instead of +2, it should work out nicely.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:48 PM
…should most summon specials do like 1-2 damage due to the animal’s power…and make the threat of losing them be what allows them to deal comparatively crazy damage?
Frogs deal 2 off a dodge plus your own folowup. BtF means you can’t followup (you suspect a joker!) but the frog does more.
Put it on a Ten.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:50 PM
Here’s an important question: What animals can she summon?
Frogs and Tigers, right?
Is there more than that?
(And is there any distinction between different types of Tigers once they’re summoned?)
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:51 PM
woodland thingy on the other side of frog?
(Yes I think so…?)
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:52 PM
It’s hard to phrase Murkwood Allies correctly if you have a summonable Beast, since it has to be one ability that covers both sides.
I know because I tried, and while it did work, it looked way better when I removed the Beast.
I was thinking there shouldn’t be any distinction between different Tigers once they’ve been summoned, if only for simplicity’s sake. Cala is already becoming a complex character…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:54 PM
Then…that one does straight damage.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:55 PM
I thought a 1 combo point starter would work well for the Beast of Murkwood.
(That’s what I’m naming that attack; the other side is Frogs of Murkwood.)
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:55 PM
And no tiger distinction, got it.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:57 PM
If the only way to trigger Frogs is to dodge, then maybe she needs more dodges?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 9:58 PM
yeah. 4 dodges sound good?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 9:58 PM
That should be plenty.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:01 PM
4 dodge ranks
hm…
2-10…9. 18.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:02 PM
So hear me out:
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:02 PM
A-T-D-B…
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:02 PM
What if the 4th rank was Stalking Tiger?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:03 PM
oh?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:08 PM
I was thinking that K could be Stalking/Predator Tiger as Dodge/Throw, respectively, and Stalking would just do a set amount of damage and summon a Tiger instead of having a followup.
Predator Tiger also summons a Tiger, of course.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:10 PM
Sure.
How about for 2-10 cards…
2DB+BtF 3AB 4AD 5AB 6AD 7TD 8TD 9AT 10TB+BtF was what I was kinda thinking…is this good or stupid?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:11 PM
FYI, I specifically chose Dodge/Throw so that it could be beaten by fast enemy throws… Which lose to Murkwood.
Wait, so Behind the Ferns is on both 2 and T?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:11 PM
…sure?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:11 PM
I don’t think there’s ever been an ability on two ranks before.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:12 PM
It doesn’t exactly do a ton anyways…
and…
okay I guess I’m just not sure whether to put it on one or the other.
2 probably.
They only have 2 jokers anyways…
That not a terrible normals layout?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:15 PM
I’ve been assuming 4 combo points, which seems relevant for straight purposes…
Seems fine?(edited)
I think you have too many dodges if we have Stalking Tiger as a dodge, though.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:17 PM
Yeah.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:18 PM
Now that I’m counting, you’ve got 5 ranks of normal dodges…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:20 PM
But you can’t follow up ST with anything but its ability.
so…what would you replace?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:20 PM
Stalking Tiger can also trigger Frogs, though.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:20 PM
and who else if any has how many lots of dodges?
Oh!
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:21 PM
I’m not sure what a good spread is, but for this entire thing I’ve been assuming something is like Grave until we’ve decided otherwise.
(Purely because Grave is the “default” in my mind.)
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:21 PM
So…you can follow up ST with frog but not punch?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:22 PM
Remember, I said Frogs are additional damage.
So Stalking Tiger + a Frog could do a good bit of damage.(edited)
Especially if Behind the Ferns is active.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:22 PM
I like that.
So you can follow up any dodge with frog, but YOU can’t play an attack or throw after Tiger.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:24 PM
Right!
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:24 PM
So how would you update normal spread?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:24 PM
That’s… A bit hard to decide.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:25 PM
Fine.Specials then?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:25 PM
Is there a reason to go with something other than the Grave spread?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:26 PM
Well…I don’t want an attack on her (his?) 2. I can’t explain why.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:27 PM
Cala is defintely female.
Or at least, I’ve always interpreted Cala as female…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:28 PM
As in I couldn’t if I tried. Make it a blockdodge with ability, put a dodge on her 6?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
Why would she need a dodge on 6?
If anything, she needs compensation for the missing Attack.
sharpobject - Yesterday at 10:29 PM
grave spread is not enough dodges, and they’re on ranks that are too good to combat reveal
that’s my imo as a 5,6,7,8 dodger
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:31 PM
Four ranks of dodges (including one side of K) isn’t enough? I guess that makes sense for this build.
I’ll trust your judgement on this over my own!
sharpobject - Yesterday at 10:32 PM
oh idk
if one is on K that is way enough
I mean presumably grave players think of grave as having enough too
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
Oh, OK.
I’m glad I’m not crazy to think that’s enough!
Also just checked Calamandra’s page on the Codex Database, and Sirlin’s ruling says “When her max level ability…” So she’s definitely female.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
2DB+BtF 3AB 4AD 5AB 6AB 7TB 8TD 9TD 10TB better?
A3456 T78910 D2489 B2356710 Hm…no, too much Block.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:36 PM
Still 4 ranks of normal dodges (sharpo just said 3 is enough if K is a dodge).
How about 2BD 3AD 4AD 5AB 6AB 7AT 8TB 9TB 10TB? It’s just the Grave spread but with the block on 7 swapped for the attack on 2.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:38 PM
Hm…
I would want dodges tied together with some throws because then they won’t just be used as faster attacks.
Sigh…
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:40 PM
That still seems like a good spread in terms of proportions, so maybe just swap some things around?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:41 PM
Hm…
Agreed.
Though…if we make both 2 and 10 dodgeblocks, we can have even more dodges and abilities, and they would be a unique resource to manage. I like the prospect…5 blocks, 3even 2odd and each can be used as whatever form of defensive option or followup. Just a shitshot though…
In any case.
We going to purposefully unbalance her blocks for even-odd? It could open up options for messing with her kit…
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
I’m fine with it.
What speed are her normals? x.6, or something else?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:47 PM
…4.
sharpobject - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
anything from x.0 on up is pretty safe if you aren’t giving her a 2 attack
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
She had a slower set of normals, let her beat same-rank a bit more often.
…2 maybe?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:50 PM
Midori has x.2 normals, but his first normal attack is on 4… I could go either way here.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:50 PM
4 it is then.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
Yeah, Lum has x.4 and his first normal attack is on 3.
So that makes sense.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
So…specials time?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
Sure.
Here’s what I have for Jack… Frogs of Murkwood: Attack 1+1 (+3 any) dmg, speed 2.4, 1 CP Ender // Beast of Murkwood: Attack (KD) 6 (3) dmg, speed 4.0, 1 CP Starter
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
Yeah!
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:53 PM
(The KD on Beast is optional; I’m not attached to it)
Queen would be Tiger Uppercut: Attack 9 (2) dmg, speed 0.1, 3 CP Ender
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:54 PM
J*: Murkwood Allies. For each Frogs of Murkwood, attach it and any cards used to pump to your character. blahblahablahb dodge followup.
Or if too powerful, then only attach pumpers…
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:55 PM
Murkwood Allies: If you won combat and Frogs of Murkwood deals damage, attach it and any pump cards to Calamandra as Frog cards. Whenever you dodge an attack or Joker, discard one attached Frog to deal 2 damage.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:55 PM
naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
YES!
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:56 PM
Did we decide for sure how Frogs get knocked off?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:56 PM
losing combat where you get hit loses one frog…?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
Should she have to take damage? Changes whether dodges can reliably remove frogs.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:58 PM
…yes.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:59 PM
Murkwood Allies: … Whenever you lose combat and take damage, discard one attached Frog.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 10:59 PM
doesn’t Geiger have to take damage to remove his crazy mode?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 10:59 PM
No, he just needs to get hit.
Then again, Temporal Distortion is a bit stronger than this…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
Agreed.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
Was my Q earlier okay, by the way?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
Yes!
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
OK, I have most of the K done, but I need a speed and damage amount for the throw side.
Also whether it knocks down.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
no knockdown.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
Alright.
Probably speed 8.x, based on other special throws on non-grapplers?
Speaking of, are her normal throws x.6 speed?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:02 PM
Yes…I guess.
speed of less than 8? 6 something, but doesn’t do as much damage on hit?
…your call.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:04 PM
Hm…
Oh, that means we need to figure out how much her throws do.
7 damage for normal throws seems fine?
Oh, we’ve gone all this time without ever defining an innate ability for her…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:17 PM
OH SPIT
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:18 PM
It’s fine! I figure one possible solution is just to move the part where the animals deal damage and get discarded to her innate, and have the card abilities just be attaching them.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:19 PM
That can work and clear up a thing or two.
Tigers always do more than frogs though.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:20 PM
Right, that just makes sense.
But should they trigger the damage in the same way or different ways?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:20 PM
5 with no capability to BtF?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:21 PM
It seems lame if a frog does the same damage as a tiger because of behind the ferns, though…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:21 PM
Uh…tigers trigger on attack and don’t leave after, but can be jokered to make them leave anyways?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:22 PM
Hm… That’s interesting.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:22 PM
Tigers 4 then?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:22 PM
What makes tigers leave? Joker can’t be all, since BtF makes them immune to those.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:23 PM
Tigers can’t be BtF though?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:23 PM
Then frogs with BtF deal more damage than tigers?
2+3 vs 4 or 5?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:24 PM
Tigers are forced to leave if you use them in a combat reveal and are jokered…or if your attack is dodged (or blocked, so that Rook isn’t left out).
4? 5? I’m not sure anymore myself.
Balance!
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:25 PM
So if you win combat with an attack, tiger does damage. If you lose combat with attack, tiger leaves.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
Yes.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
Also, this is less a balance issue and more a flavor issue with their strength.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
But not if you’re outsped; he stays.
I see…4, but they can swipe again so they can potentially do more than any given frog.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
The problem with them leaving if the attack is blocked is that it’s not how real tigers work… They’ll just keep pacing in front of you until you show signs of weakness.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:28 PM
Then…dodged, or knocked down?
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:28 PM
That would probably be fine.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
But with two tigers, a dodge into a throw would not remove both.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
…I’m getting deja vu. Didn’t we discuss dodge and KD earlier?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
Yeah, we did.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
We’re good at remembering things!
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
:rollsafe:
Aces.
Hobusu - Yesterday at 11:33 PM
Gigadon is one, right?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Yesterday at 11:34 PM
Yeah. Flavor…use up summons to make it cost less or do more damage.
Other is for if you don’t have shut to but it with. One Ace, wimpy but fast? Slow but damaging? Or another summon or summon modifier?
Hobusu - Today at 11:37 PM
I don’t think that having abilities for both sides makes much sense.
So it’s probably just an attack of some kind…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:38 PM
Yeah…
She had some fast stuff. Let’s make it a hard read against a throw.
Slow, 14(6) seem okay?
Hobusu - Today at 11:39 PM
Sounds fine.
Obviously this will all need tested at some point (if we can finish making a rough version tonight, I can take it to my card club tomorrow).
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:40 PM
Yay!
What to do with Gigadon…
Hobusu - Today at 11:42 PM
Has to cost 4 aces by default, I’d imagine.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:42 PM
More. Frogs and tigers equal aces here and here only.
Or just 4, yeah.
Hobusu - Today at 11:43 PM
Wowowow, the only character in the game who needs more aces than exist in a deck to play super?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:43 PM
Gotta be some way to use it without summons, right?
I guess
Hobusu - Today at 11:43 PM
That would be interesting… But yeah, needs to be possible without summons.
Just, not that good without either the discount or extra damage.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:44 PM
How much should GD do anyways???
Hobusu - Today at 11:44 PM
…No idea.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:45 PM
30…+3(any frogs)…+6(any tigers)?
Hobusu - Today at 11:45 PM
Sounds good for a first draft, at least.
Can frogs reduce the cost, or only tigers?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:45 PM
WE ROUGHLY DONE
frogs can but you’ll need more of them to be an Ace.
And you need a hand Ace to play it anyways.
Hobusu - Today at 11:47 PM
Right, you need at least one as the combat reveal card…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:48 PM
2 frogs for one more Ace, 3 for any other replACEments?
And one tiger equals one ace?
Hobusu - Today at 11:48 PM
What other replacements…?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:49 PM
Replacing ace costs.
Hobusu - Today at 11:49 PM
Tiger = Ace is good, 2 frogs = 1 ace may be OK.
Still not sure what you mean, though. Three of what replaces an ace?
There’s no more summons.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:50 PM
Three frogs to replace more than one ace. 2 for one, 5 total for two, 8 total frogs to replace three aces.
Hobusu - Today at 11:51 PM
That sounds hard to explain in a single ability text box…
Let’s keep it simple, please?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:51 PM
Sorry.
2-4-6 then.
Hobusu - Today at 11:51 PM
Maybe being close to midnight here is making it harder on me, though.
But we’re so close…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:52 PM
I look forward to your game night?
Hobusu - Today at 11:53 PM
Afternoon tomorrow, really.
I’m actually starting it by letting them watch my IYL game at 1:30 EDT.(edited)
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:53 PM
If I’m available on discord when you do…
Hit me up!
Hobusu - Today at 11:54 PM
I’ll try to remember to do that!
Based on that conversation, I made the rough draft below as we went. Please let me know if you have any suggestions, whether it’s filling in any question mark spaces or improving the overall design! The sooner the better – I’d like to playtest this tomorrow after my IYL game.
Rough Draft of Calamandra
Calamandra Moss
Tiger Magus
Life: ??
Combo Points: 4
Normal Attack Speed: x.4
Normal Throw Speed: x.6 (7 dmg and KD, 2 combo point Starter)
Ferocity: While Calamandra has a Frog card attached, if you dodge an attack or Joker you may discard a Frog to deal 2 damage to the opponent. While Calamandra has a Tiger card attached, if you hit with an attack you may discard a Tiger to deal 4 damage to the opponent. (Damage from Frogs and Tigers can be prevented with Rewind Time Jokers.)
2: Block/Dodge – Behind the Ferns [Draw Phase] – Ongoing: Attached Frogs (and Tigers?) do +3 damage each and are immune to Rewind Time Jokers. Discard this if you get thrown.
(Remainder of spread to be determined…?)
Jack
Frogs of Murkwood: Attack 1+1 (+3 any) dmg, speed 2.4, 1 CP Ender
Beast of Murkwood: Attack (KD) 6 (3) dmg, speed 4.0, 1 CP Starter
Murkwood Allies [During Combat]
If you won combat and Frogs of Murkwood deals damage, attach it and any pump cards to Calamandra as Frog cards. Whenever you lose combat to an attack or throw and take damage, discard one attached Frog.
Queen
Tiger Uppercut: Attack 9 (2) dmg, speed 0.1, 3 CP Ender
King
Stalking Tiger: Dodge
Predator Tiger: Throw 6 dmg, speed 8.?, Can’t Combo
Eye of the Tiger [Combat Reveal]
If you dodge an attack or Joker with Stalking Tiger, don’t play a follow-up card. Your opponent takes 6 damage and is knocked down. If you win combat with either side of this card, attach it to Calamandra as a Tiger card. Whenever you lose combat to a dodge or get knocked down, discard one attached Tiger.
Ace
Feral Strike: 14 (6?) dmg, speed ?.?, (Can this combo? How many aces?)
Gigadon: 30 (5) dmg, speed ?.?, Can’t Combo AAAA
Gigadon [Combat Reveal]
You may discard attached Frogs and Tigers to reduce the number of aces that must be discarded for this attack by one for every two Frogs or one Tiger you discard. This attack does +3 damage for each Frog and +6 damage for each Tiger you have attached (after discarding for the Ace cost).
mmm, that seems a little too complex and low damage. I would suggest starting with something like the following, and adding complexity/adjusting damage as needed from playtest
My version of Cal
HP: 90
4 cp
X.6 speed attacks and throws. Throws are 2 cp, 7 damage, KD
Murkwood Allies - After combat, if you hit with any Face Cards, (Aces aren’t Faces) attach those cards to Cal as Allies. You may use your Ally cards to pump your attacks. Whenever you are Thrown, discard one of your Allies.
Behind The Ferns (2 ability) - Draw Phase: discard one of your Allies to deal 5 damage.
Jack - Summon Allies: Attach the cards used to pump either side of this attack to Cal as additional Allies
Frogs - 2cp Linker; 1+1 damage, +1 any. Speed 2.0
Beast - Can’t Combo; 6+1 damage, +4 any. Speed 4.0
Queen - Tiger Strike
3cp Ender; 0.4 speed; 8 damage
King
Stalking Tiger - 1.8 speed Can’t Combo Attack; 8+8 (+1 Q) damage
Predator Tiger - 8.0 speed Can’t Combo Throw. 8 damage, KD
Ace
Gigadon - AAAA - 3 cp .8 speed ender, 40 damage. You may discard allies 1-for-1 instead of playing additional Aces.
Feral Strike - AA - 1.2 speed ender, 20 damage
2 Likes
Yeah, I felt like it was too complex (and I suspected the damage output was too low), so this seems a lot better. What spread of normal attacks, throws, blocks and dodges would you suggest?
2 - Dodge/Attack
3 - Dodge/Attack
4 - Attack/Command Throw (pumpable)
5 - Block/Attack
6 - Block/Dodge
7 - Block/Throw
8 - Attack/Throw
9 - Block/Throw
10 - Dodge/Throw
???
Seems good at a glance. Though that raises the question of what the stats of the command throw are? Unless I’m missing something, that’s all that needs to be defined to have a version we can test.
IDK, pick something. Probably the same a Jaina’s 6?
OK, that was what I was thinking too. One thing I’d like to clarity is whether Allies used to pump a Summon Allies attack will be reattached to Calamandra? I’m guessing yes, but it’s one of those things (like Firehouse) that looks like a misprint when you first read it. “It can’t really work that way… Right?” Sure, they only do meaningful damage if you pump Beast of Murkwood, but being able to add free damage is never bad!
Edit: Also, can cards still be attached to Calamandra (either from Murkwood Allies or Summon Allies) if the opponent uses a Rewind Time Joker? That seems ambiguous right now.
My intent was for the cards to get re-attached after pumping (so, kind of like a more limited Giant Growth effect), and that everything would attach regardless of Rewind Time (since you still hit with things, even if the damage is prevented).
She probably needs an ability on one of her Normals to search for her Face cards. Maybe something like:
Power-up Phase: Discard this card and a Pair from your hand to search your Deck for up to 2 Face cards and add them to your hand.
Sounds good! I guess that keeps her from being too weak, since you only get so many opportunities to get Allies per game.
Oh, what Midori would give to have this ability… If you think it’s fine for her to have a fourth ability, let’s go for it! Maybe this gets the name Ferocity?
Has she been playtested yet? Sounds like an interesting concept.
I haven’t been in a position to test her yet, but I’d like to! The only thing that I think is still in the air is which rank gets the retrieve a face card ability, and that’s not an essential part of the character, so feel free to test her out with some friends if you want. Sometime next week I might compile all the details of how she works and format it nicely, just for ease of use.