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[Custom Character] Leonore, Rushdown Thinker~ (Somehow, less Yomicity, but still full-flavored?! Opinions vary!)


#1

I don’t have any lore thought up yet, but… :scream_cat:

Leonore, Rushdown Thinker~
80 HP
5 CP
Throws: 2 CP, Speed X.4, 7 Damage & KD. -> Changed to 3 CP, Speed X.4, 7 Damage & KD.
(After changing the K to its current version, but before this change, she could get 37 damage from a successful throw, which seems too high. Her max throw damage has been reduced to 27 as a result of this change.)
Normal Attacks: X.4 Speed, X Damage.
(X = Card Rank)

Innate:
"At the start of the game, draw 12 cards & discard five cards instead of drawing seven cards.

During the draw phase, if you hit the opponent last turn, return X different non-2, non-Joker cards from your discard to your hand where X is the amount of consecutive turns you have hit the opponent, capped at four!"

Card Ranks:

*2 A/D
3 A/D
4 A/D (Used to be A/B.)
5 A/B
6 A/T
7 T/B
8 T/B
9 T/B
10 A/B (Used to be A/D.)

J Throw: 8.0 Speed, 5 CP Ender. 8 + 8 (J) & KD -> Changed to 6.0 Speed, Can’t Combo. 8 + 8 (J) & KD.

J Attack: 2.8 Speed, 1 CP Linker. 7 (2) Damage. -> Changed to 3.0 Speed, 1 CP Linker. 7 (2) Damage.
(Yes, I just changed the speed of the move. I don’t want it to beat 2s, usually.)

Q Attack: 0.0 Speed, 3 CP Ender. 5 (2) + 5 + 5 (Any), for 15 max Damage.

K Attack: 3.6 Speed, 2 CP Linker. 6 (2) + 5 + 4 + 3 (Any), for 18 max Damage. -> Changed to 2.2 Speed, 2 CP Linker. 6 (2) + 7 (Face Cards) + 7 (Face Cards), for 20 Max Damage.

(ORIGINAL WORDING - Check out the new wording for Thinking Ahead in the Abilities Section!)
*A Attack, Thinking Ahead: 6.0 Speed, Can’t Combo. 1 (0) Damage. Thinking Ahead: During Combat: “If you won combat & Thinking Ahead dealt damage, set aside the cards in your hand face down, shuffle them, & draw cards from your deck equal to the number of cards set aside this way. At the start of the next game, draw cards from your set aside hand until it is depleted before drawing from your deck. (If you win combat & deal damage with Thinking Ahead again, shuffle your current hand & exchange it for your face-down hand. No player can look at your face-down hand.)”

AA Attack: 0.4 Speed, 4 CP Ender. 22 (3) + 9 + 9 (Aces) for 40 max Damage.

Attacks: 2*, 3-6, 10, J, Q+Any+Any, K+Face Cards+Face Cards, A*, AA+A+A
Throws: 6-9, & J+J
Blocks: 4, 5, 7, 8, & 9
Dodges: 2*, 3, & 10

Fastest Attacks: Q (0.0), AA+A+A (0.4), A* (2.0), K+Face Cards+Face Cards (2.2), 2* (2.4), J (3.0), 3 (3.4), 4 (4.4)…
Fastest Throws: J+J (6.0), 6 (6.4), 7 (7.4), 8 (8.4), & 9 (9.4).

Abilities:

(Old Wording) Deny Reality (2 Ability): Draw Phase: “Once per turn, reveal a rank of card (Joker is a rank) from your hand. This turn, if a card of that rank is revealed as a combat card it has no effect & is discarded. If a card of that rank is used as a combo escape card this turn it has no effect & is discarded. If a card of that rank is used to follow up a won combat or if a card of that rank is used to pump an attack or throw, the player who followed up/pumped takes the damage that would deal instead. If an ability on that card rank is played or activates this turn, that ability has no effect, that card is discarded, & the player who played that card takes 5 damage.”

(Current Wording) Deny Reality (2 Ability): While Combat Cards Facedown: “After players have chosen a combat card but before the combat-reveal, name a rank of card (Including Jokers). During this combat, the rank you named has no effect.”

(Old Wording) Thinking Ahead (A Attack): During Combat: “If you won combat & Thinking Ahead dealt damage, set aside the cards in your hand face down, shuffle them, & draw cards from your deck equal to the number of cards set aside this way. At the start of the next game, draw cards from your set aside hand until it is depleted before drawing from your deck. (If you win combat & deal damage with Thinking Ahead again, shuffle your current hand & exchange it for your face-down hand. No player can look at your face-down hand.)”

(Current Wording) Thinking Ahead (A Attack) [During Combat]: "If you won combat & Thinking Ahead dealt damage, set aside any number of cards from your hand face down in any order. Draw cards from your deck equal to the number of cards set aside this way. Whenever you would draw from your deck, you may choose to draw from your face-down cards instead. No player can look at your facedown hand, except when you win combat & deal damage with a another Thinking Ahead & you have remaining facedown cards from a previous one. (Set aside any number of cards, adding them to your facedown cards. You can look at and rearrange your set aside cards, then put them face-down - after which no player can look at them. Draw cards equal to the number of cards set aside this way.)

When the current game ends, if you are going to keep playing Leonore, keep your face-down cards set aside. Any time you would draw from your deck you may draw from your face-down cards. (Otherwise, shuffle your face-down cards into your deck before the next game.)"


#3

I am confused… Did ye have a change of :heart: @Castanietzsche?


#4

I’m testing your character with real cards before saying anything :slight_smile:

The concept really pleases me a lot :slight_smile:


#5

Just to clarify, when this ability says “at the start of the next game,” it is referring to a new game played after the completion of the current game, yes? So, if you aren’t playing multiple games in a row with this character, this ability would do nothing except allow you to cycle out cards and draw new ones, yes?


#6

I’m also curious to hear your thoughts on why this ability does not simply disallow a card of that rank to be played? I can’t really think of a good scenario where anyone would want to play a card for no effect or to damage themselves, so in effect this ability is really just saying “you’re not allowed to use that rank of card in combat,” which would be a lot less text to get the same effect.


#7

Deny Reality reminds me of EX Geiger’s “Yestergear” ability:


#8

True! I don’t own EX so I didn’t even make that connection.

It might be fun if Deny Reality was something like:

"Deny Reality [Just Before Combat Reveal]

After players have chosen a combat card but before they are revealed, you may play this card and name a rank of card (Jokers are a rank of card). During this combat, rank of card you named has no effect when combat revealed."

I don’t know if this is too strong or too weak? But it makes the ability a. a lot less complicated to read, b. more distinct from Yestergear, and c. a little flavorful (in my opinion) because it relies on predicting the opponent. Might be a feel-bad moment for the opponent and might be too ripe for abuse, though.


#9

I feel like there has to be a more elegant way of saying it than “Jokers are a rank of card.” I’m sure most people reading that would be (subconsciously?) annoyed that they’re being told something “obvious,” when the real question is whether the rank of cards called Jokers can be chosen.


#10

“You may play this card and name any rank of card, including Jokers.”

Maybe that feels better to read?


#11

“Including Jokers.”

Seems simple and elegant enough, and makes it significantly distinct from other abilities that exclude them in the first place.


#12

Aw, thanks! I look forward to hearing what ye think!! :smiley_cat: [quote=“Zqxx, post:5, topic:2966”]
Just to clarify, when this ability says “at the start of the next game,” it is referring to a new game played after the completion of the current game, yes? So, if you aren’t playing multiple games in a row with this character, this ability would do nothing except allow you to cycle out cards and draw new ones, yes?
[/quote]
Yes, that’s true! The intent was mostly to give Leonore something that could set up her hand/discard for the next game! But I guess it can be used in hand emergencies to try to get a better hand. I’m mildly concerned about timeouts being possible more easily as a result of this ability, so I think I might add a non-timeout clause to it like, “If you draw the last card or your deck this way, the game doesn’t end.” It would be cool if it could enable timeouts in a fair way, but I haven’t thought about how to do that.

Yeah, I went too hard trying to cover all the possible uses of the card, without considering that I could just write something like that instead. :stuck_out_tongue: The reason for that in part is that I wanted there to be a punishment for forgetting it, but that is probably excessive. I like the Yestergear-ish idea!

I forgot one other reason I worded it that way! It’s also kind of a pre-counter from Codex or something it its original form! It’s likely that that isn’t necessary to include![quote=“Zqxx, post:10, topic:2966, full:true”]
“You may play this card and name any rank of card, including Jokers.”

Maybe that feels better to read?
[/quote]
I agree!! I’m currently changing Deny Reality to, “After players have chosen a combat card but before the combat-reveal, name a rank of card (Including Jokers). During this combat, the rank you named has no effect.” Thanks for all of your suggestions!! :heart::smiley_cat:

The pre-Counterspell part of it is not an essential piece of the ability/the way that Leonore will function, I think. A question that I have at this point, though, is if it’s too punishing of an ability to include in Leonore’s kit. It does rely upon some amount of prediction, but would Deny Reality be too powerful against a Block-starved :codexquince:? What do ye think?


#13

When I have more time (i.e. When I’m off work haha) I’ll try to Theory craft the ability a bit more and decide whether it’s obviously broken or not.

Could you expand a bit on why you think it would be problematic for a block-starved Quince specifically? Right now, I’m imagining the ability would be used to make combat super safe for Leonore or to set up guaranteed combat wins (for example, if Leonore suspects the opponent only has one rank of even blocks on KD, Leonore can play an even normal and deny the rank of blocks).


#14

Quince probably wasn’t the best example, because of Two Truths & Flagstone Tax, but I was just thinking of slower characters like that who could find themselves with very few blocks in hand - possibly making them extra susceptible to Deny Reality. But it seems very hand-specific & shouldn’t come up too often, right? Also, flavor-wise, Quince is protected in some ways because of his reliance upon illusion. :stuck_out_tongue:


#15

So, further thoughts:

  1. Is one side of Jack supposed to be a 5CP ender? Because of the character only has 5CP, then shouldn’t that side of J just be a Can’t Combo move?

  2. Having both Q and K be rather card-intensive could be a problem? Seems like Leonore might be a little too card hungry. The 10 attack might ameliorate that problem because that offers at least one very card-efficient damage source, and she does have her innate to set up a vortex of recurring cards. But, it still is a problem worth keeping an eye on, I think.

  3. With regards to whether or not Deny Reality might be too powerful, I personally don’t think so. It does allow Leonore to heavily punish characters who go too low hand, but I think that’s OK. Considering Leonore doesn’t have any cards that let her peek at the other player’s hand, it feels like it would be fair enough. My intuition says that the card would be used to cancel out Aces and Jokers 90% of the time anyways.

Jokers are the only potential broken aspect of this? After all, the ability as written more or less allows Leonore to get guaranteed combos. In the most extreme examples, if Leonore successfully hits with a 10, she can hit-confirm into all her aces for a total of 50 unjokerable damage. However, considering Geiger’s TD shenanigans, I don’t think it’s necessarily a cause for alarm.

  1. You may want to consider making Thinking Ahead faster? Thinking Ahead feels like it’s Leonore’s “thing,” but right now, it would be so risky to play, so I’m afraid of people being too scared to actually use Leonore’s defining card. If I had to recommend a speed, I would say 2.0. First of all, it completes a nice trio with Clockwork Soldiers (1.0 speed) and Mistress’ Command (3.0 speed). Additionally, Leonore has nothing but her Q to contest the coveted 2.2 speed threshold. I feel like :argagarg: is a big problem for Leonore right now; :argagarg:'s 2, J, and Q all trade favorably with or simply out-speed most of Leonore’s combo-starting options. :vendetta: with 2-pokes would also be difficult to deal with. Same with :gloria: and her K/J. This is compounded by the fact that Leonore only has three dodges, one of which is on her 10 attack, which she would probably be loathe to use as anything but combo damage. Having Ace at 2.0 speed would give her something to defuse 2.2 speed attacks.

It is true that she can recur Q through her innate, but that all relies on her drawing Qs in the first place, which depending on the game, might not happen for a while.

  1. My only other comment right now is that, if I were designing Leonore, I would not have Thinking Ahead set aside cards “for the next game,” because it assumes there will be a next game. If someone were casually playing Yomi, they might want to change their character after a game ends; alternatively, in a hypothetical tournament scenario, if two players are playing the last game in a set, there is again no “next game” for Thinking Ahead to prepare Leonore for. If I were asked to tweak Thinking Ahead while trying to preserve the flavor, I might do something like this:

Thinking Ahead [During Combat]

If you won combat & Thinking Ahead dealt damage, set aside any number of cards from your hand face down. Draw cards from your deck equal to the number of cards set aside. Whenever you would draw from your deck, you may choose to draw from your face-down cards instead. (Your opponent may not look at your face-down hand.)

Ultimately, though, it’s up to you. Since this is a fan character, we are not really beholden to the practical aspects of Yomi, so if you want to keep the “next game” aspect of the ability, do as you please! :grin:


Anyways, sorry for all the text. Also, these are just my thoughts, so feel free to accept or reject any/all/some.


#16

[quote=“Zqxx, post:15, topic:2966”]1) Is one side of Jack supposed to be a 5CP ender? Because of the character only has 5CP, then shouldn’t that side of J just be a Can’t Combo move?
[/quote]
That actually was intentional! As far as I’m aware Can’t Combo moves can’t be pumped. At least, I didn’t think that that was a thing! I was trying to give Leonore a command throw-ish thing, but It’s possible that instead of making it 5 CP, instead I should make it 2-3 CP & decrease the max damage on it slightly! It’s also possible that it should be faster? Around 7.0, maybe?

I hadn’t considered that! That could be the case! I still haven’t actually tested Leonore yet! :stuck_out_tongue: But, I could see her having difficulty dealing reasonable damage consistently before her vortex gets going.

[quote=“Zqxx, post:15, topic:2966”]3) With regards to whether or not Deny Reality might be too powerful, I personally don’t think so. It does allow Leonore to heavily punish characters who go too low hand, but I think that’s OK. Considering Leonore doesn’t have any cards that let her peek at the other player’s hand, it feels like it would be fair enough. My intuition says that the card would be used to cancel out Aces and Jokers 90% of the time anyways.

Jokers are the only potential broken aspect of this? After all, the ability as written more or less allows Leonore to get guaranteed combos. In the most extreme examples, if Leonore successfully hits with a 10, she can hit-confirm into all her aces for a total of 50 unjokerable damage. However, considering Geiger’s TD shenanigans, I don’t think it’s necessarily a cause for alarm.[/quote]
Like I said, I haven’t tested her yet, but I’m guessing that Deny Reality is fine. Denying Jokers sounds powerful, but that still allows blocks, though it does complicate knockdown situations for the opponent. Leonore’s crossup’s would likely be quite threatening due to Deny Reality, but that doesn’t seem too powerful to me!

Also, ye are probably right that Denying Aces & Jokers will be quite a common use case!

[quote=“Zqxx, post:15, topic:2966”]4) You may want to consider making Thinking Ahead faster? Thinking Ahead feels like it’s Leonore’s “thing,” but right now, it would be so risky to play, so I’m afraid of people being too scared to actually use Leonore’s defining card. If I had to recommend a speed, I would say 2.0. First of all, it completes a nice trio with Clockwork Soldiers (1.0 speed) and Mistress’ Command (3.0 speed). Additionally, Leonore has nothing but her Q to contest the coveted 2.2 speed threshold. I feel like :argagarg: is a big problem for Leonore right now; :argagarg:'s 2, J, and Q all trade favorably with or simply out-speed most of Leonore’s combo-starting options. :vendetta: with 2-pokes would also be difficult to deal with. Same with :gloria: and her K/J. This is compounded by the fact that Leonore only has three dodges, one of which is on her 10 attack, which she would probably be loathe to use as anything but combo damage. Having Ace at 2.0 speed would give her something to defuse 2.2 speed attacks.

It is true that she can recur Q through her innate, but that all relies on her drawing Qs in the first place, which depending on the game, might not happen for a while.[/quote]
Ooh, I am in favor of speeding up Thinking Ahead to 2.0 speed! And I like that Leonore’s A could be part of that trio! :smiley_cat:

I think that the dodge on Leonore’s 10 should be changed to a block. Then her 4 could be an Attack/Dodge, to compensate!!

About Leonore’s speeds, I think I should probably reduce the speed of K to give her another threatening approach option, as well. My worry with making it too fast originally was that Leonore could just pick up her K after hitting with it if it’s reasonable to comat-reveal, but after considering what ye posted there’s probably a happy medium around 2.2 speed, or thereabouts? What do ye think about that? Do ye think that also increasing the damage efficiency of K would be a mistake? Around 6 (2) + 7 (Face Cards) + 7 (Face Cards), or so?

[quote=“Zqxx, post:15, topic:2966”]5) My only other comment right now is that, if I were designing Leonore, I would not have Thinking Ahead set aside cards “for the next game,” because it assumes there will be a next game. If someone were casually playing Yomi, they might want to change their character after a game ends; alternatively, in a hypothetical tournament scenario, if two players are playing the last game in a set, there is again no “next game” for Thinking Ahead to prepare Leonore for. If I were asked to tweak Thinking Ahead while trying to preserve the flavor, I might do something like this:

Thinking Ahead [During Combat]
If you won combat & Thinking Ahead dealt damage, set aside any number of cards from your hand face down. Draw cards from your deck equal to the number of cards set aside. Whenever you would draw from your deck, you may choose to draw from your face-down cards instead. (Your opponent may not look at your face-down hand.)[/quote]
I like this tweak, but I just want to tweak it a little bit more so that it still allows for game-to-game hand passing! This is my version, at the moment:
(I missed that ye version already dealt with future Thinking Aheads past the first one XD. Oops, it required at least one more re-write! XD)

Thinking Ahead [During Combat]
If you won combat & Thinking Ahead dealt damage, set aside any number of cards from your hand face down in any order. Draw cards from your deck equal to the number of cards set aside this way. Whenever you would draw from your deck, you may choose to draw from your face-down cards instead. No player can look at your facedown hand, except when you deal damage with a second Thinking Ahead & you have remaining facedown cards from a previous one. (Set aside any number of cards, adding them to your facedown cards. You can look at and rearrange your set aside cards, then put them face-down - after which no player can look at them. Draw cards equal to the number of cards set aside this way.)

When the current game ends, if you are going to keep playing Leonore, keep your face-down cards set aside. Any time you would draw from your deck you may draw from your face-down cards. (Otherwise, shuffle your face-down cards into your deck before the next game.)

I changed the wording a bit to clean up what would happen when a second Thinking Ahead hits. I was imagining hitting with a second one, and it just got too messy not being able to look at the cards. Lift up one card, put a card under that, then lift up two cards, & put a card under those - followed by putting a card on the bottom of the pile is just not elegant at all & could lead to accidental reveals more often. Now the wording might be seen as overlong, but a lot of that is reminder text that experienced players could skip over. I’m curious what people think of this version of Thinking Ahead, though!

[quote=“Zqxx, post:15, topic:2966”]Ultimately, though, it’s up to you. Since this is a fan character, we are not really beholden to the practical aspects of Yomi, so if you want to keep the “next game” aspect of the ability, do as you please! :grin:

Anyways, sorry for all the text. Also, these are just my thoughts, so feel free to accept or reject any/all/some.
[/quote]
Thanks for ye insights, @Zqxx! :smiley_cat: I missed some things that ye & others pointed out! I do want to maintain the consistency of Leonore that is unlike any character in Yomi, but all of ye points were constructive!

I wonder what ye’ll think of the next few characters I’m working on… :0


#17

Not that it matters, but some can’t combo moves can be pumped. Final Dragon Buster or Oni’s normals for example.


#18

Have you ever seen Onimaru? Because that’s his entire design:

Example Onimaru card

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/575f8cb8ab48de461197681a/57b948a8e6f2e1dd67ed8c6a/57b948bbe6f2e1dd67ed8ca2/1471760572110/0609_oni_8h.jpg?format=300w

Every single one of his attacks and throws is a Can’t Combo move, and all but three of them are pumpable. Even in the base set, Lum’s throws are Can’t Combo but can be pumped.


#19

I don’t like your tone, @Hobusu. I’ve played every character in the game. Ye should have brought this up more kindly. But, yeah, I overlooked that as well as Lum’s throws. And the pump-ability of Final Dragon Buster, as @Niijima-san mentioned. Gloria’s Q is also a pumpable Can’t Combo move. As is Great Pandamonium! (It is kinda weird that Can’t Combo moves could also be expressed as moves that use all of that character’s combo points. I wonder why Sirlin/the playtesters/other designers decided to go with Can’t Combo instead. Can’t Combo seems inelegant in that it is unnecessary, but the max-CP moves might have been unnecessarily confusing - especially to newer players? Can’t Combo probably explains that more clearly!)

Anyway, I think that I’ll change Leonore’s J Throw to a Can’t Combo move. And speed it up!

My current version is:

J Throw: 6.0 Speed, Can’t Combo. 8 + 8 (J) & KD

Also, I’ve changed the wording a bit on Thinking Ahead!

Thinking Ahead [During Combat]
"If you won combat & Thinking Ahead dealt damage, set aside any number of cards from your hand face down in any order. Draw cards from your deck equal to the number of cards set aside this way. Whenever you would draw from your deck, you may choose to draw from your face-down cards instead. No player can look at your facedown hand, except when you win combat & deal damage with a another Thinking Ahead & you have remaining facedown cards from a previous one. (Set aside any number of cards, adding them to your facedown cards. You can look at and rearrange your set aside cards, then put them face-down - after which no player can look at them. Draw cards equal to the number of cards set aside this way.)

When the current game ends, if you are going to keep playing Leonore, keep your face-down cards set aside. Any time you would draw from your deck you may draw from your face-down cards. (Otherwise, shuffle your face-down cards into your deck before the next game.)"

I changed the wording a bit to clean up what would happen when a second Thinking Ahead hits. I was imagining hitting with a second one, and it just got too messy not being able to look at the cards. Lift up one card, put a card under that, then lift up two cards, & put a card under those - followed by putting a card on the bottom of the pile is just not elegant at all & could lead to accidental reveals more often. Now the wording might be seen as overlong, but a lot of that is reminder text that experienced players could skip over. I’m curious what people think of this version of Thinking Ahead, though!


#20

I’m sorry for the tone, that was out of line. I guess I just didn’t understand why you would have thought that if you had seen Oni… My apologies.


#21

Yeah, Ive seen Oni… But that doesn’t mean that I can’t forget about Oni! :joy_cat: Apology noted! :smiley_cat:

Also, I changed Leonore’s Normal Throw CP usage from 2 to 3. She seemed to be able to do slightly too messed up things when she had 2 CP throws! :scream_cat: