Well, that could have gone a lot better. In hindsight, I probably should have let Zane live and maxed Arg instead, but that still wouldn’t have prevented the Kidnapping play from working out the same way. As it happens, this setup is still weak to Kidnapping, so I have to hope that he doesn’t have a second copy in his new hand… But the one good thing here is that the longer this game goes on, the more my Surplus will give me card advantage. At the start of next turn I’ll be back to the normal 5 cards in hand, whereas he’s pretty much forced to bleed cards just to keep up with my beefy units. And of course, if he can’t kill my Elephant (and the Bear in front of it), next turn I drop Ferocity and go to town.
My hand and deck didn’t line up well to continue the fight. I think I will be down in about 2 turns. Lets tech up to level 3 and see how that goes. If I play a card from my hand I will not be cycling my deck fast enough to make a difference. Time to get elephant stompped.
Sadly, you can’t summon Zane when you already have two other heroes in play. You only can have three heroes out at once if you have a Tech III or Heroes’ Hall, and neither gives you that benefit until the turn after you start building them.
…I’m really curious how the word Tech got replaced with Tower there.
Because it’s relevant to this turn’s events, I should note that I forgot to mention back on Turn 6 that destroying your Tech II caused your Base to take 2 damage. This means your Base should be at 18 HP remaining at the start of my turn.
Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($10)
Draw from Surplus
Summon Calamandra - ($8)
Cala casts Ferocity, giving my units swift strike and armor piercing until my next upkeep - ($6) Barkcoat Bear pierces Jaina’s armor and swiftly kills her, overpowering the excess 2 damage to your Base and taking 1 damage from your Tower; Cala gains 2 free levels (Remaining Base HP: 16)
Arg exhausts to give +1/+a to Rampaging Elephant Rampaging Elephant attacks your Base for 7 damage, its armor blocking the Tower shot, then readies to attack again (Base HP: 9) Rampaging Elephant attacks your Base for 7 damage again, taking 1 damage from your Tower (Base HP: 2) Playful Panda destroys your Base!(Base HP: 0)
Calamandra Moss Lv. 3 (3/4)
Argagarg Garg Lv. 3 (1/4)
Rampaging Elephant (6/6) (Readies after being exhausted once)
Thoughts on the game now that it’s over, which I’ll try to keep brief (but will inevitably fail to):
This is all of my thoughts after the fact, looking at your hand for each turn to see what options you have. You might also want to see my thoughts on each of my turns to see what I thought when the game was still ongoing and I only knew the cards in my hand.
In hindsight, I hope if nothing else this game has taught you the danger of leading with Zane. He tends to be most useful waiting on the sidelines for a moment when a hasty attacker who doesn’t cost a card from hand would be useful to break through the opponent’s defenses. You did make good use of him later, most notably the first Surprise Attack on turn 4.
Looking at your starting hand, you had a lot of good options here! Even if you wanted to stick with the Zane opening, you could have played Mad Man alongside him to both get in 1 more damage and have another body to either attack or patrol with next turn. Another opening would have been Nautical Dog and either Drakk or Jaina, threatening a beatdown next turn if I didn’t patrol well enough. You could have also just played Bloodrage Ogre by itself, since it’s a pretty good card to play on the first two turns in particular (since it’s really strong for a starter card, but gets outclassed by your Tech I units of the same cost).
However, I think the best opening here might have been Bloodrage Ogre and Nautical Dog. You would only draw 4 cards for your second hand, but it puts 5 ATK worth of attacking power on the board at once, which even Green would have a hard time blocking, and delaying the choice of a hero lets you see how they defend against your units and pick the hero that responds best to that defense. Notably, if Mad Man were in your second hand instead of your first (and your opponent doesn’t know that you drew Mad Man in your first hand), playing him and Zane on Turn 2 gives you a total of 8 ATK between your 3 units and a hero, all while still saving enough money to build your Tech I on schedule!
One last thought: turning Mad Man into a worker when you’re acting as if you’ll be going for a Base Race seems like a bad idea, since he’s essentially a way to turn 1 gold into 1 damage. If you’d kept going for the Base damage, it would’ve been sad if you’d gotten 1 HP short of what you needed… If you’re opening with Zane, keep anything that lets you do immediate damage above all else.
Not sure why the Starting Hand on this turn is different from the Next Hand listed on the last turn, but I’m assuming it was something to do with the trouble you had with the spreadsheet. I’ll go with the previous turn’s Next Hand, since that should be more accurate (and even if you played with the wrong hand somehow, I figure giving you advice based on a legal hand would be better anyway).
Admittedly, I’m a little short of ideas for how to handle this better. It’s an awkward situation to be in, but I think the only thing I would’ve done differently would be to play Careless Musketeer and put him in Squad Leader instead of killing a Wisp with Makeshift Rambaster. I know part of why that happened was because you didn’t see the Wisp at first, but there’s still that Panda waiting on the sidelines to attack something if you don’t put up any defenses. That’s why Red is hard to play well, since you need to find the delicate balance between all-out aggression and keeping just enough defense up to not get blown up.
Same thing here; based on the actions you took it looks like the Next Hand shown on Turn 2 was more accurate than the Starting Hand shown on Turn 3.
It turned out that saving money worked out well here, since you were able to play Surprise Attack next turn, but you might have considered playing Bombaster either in addition to or instead of Musketeer, since it’s a better unit for blocking attacks (2 HP vs 1).
Ah, good. Since this is where you found the History function, it looks like your hands will be consistent from here on.
This turn actually surprised me, since I hadn’t expected a Surprise Attack at all. You got good value out of it, too, since you were able to very nearly wipe my board and take out Calamandra, who I’d expected to be untouchable behind those three patrollers and would’ve certainly been leveled to max next turn. I think playing Calypso Vystari and patrolling her in Technician would’ve been a good idea here, since that would give you some defense that either didn’t cost a card (if I killed her and you got the Technician bonus) or provided another attacker or an opportunity to use her ability (if she survived). Still, after seeing your turn I said “maybe I don’t have this in the bag after all.”
Oof, this hand wasn’t kind to you. I probably would have workered Pillage or Scorch instead of Charge myself, but other than that there wasn’t much you could have done better here.
Evaluating the correct play is getting increasingly hard. I would say that teching Maximum Anarchy was probably a mistake, since Zane would have to be at max level at the start of the turn you want to cast it (meaning you can’t just summon him, level him to max right away, and immediately cast Max Anarchy). It might have been better to tech something like Bloodlust instead, to give haste to that Ogre Recruiter you’re teching this turn. It might have also been a good idea to use Shoddy Glider to kill one of my heroes (most likely Calamandra) before they caused too much trouble, but it’s hard to say whether it would be worth the card if you don’t play a hero to get the free levels from the kill (and it’s also hard to say whether it would be safe to play a hero there).
Before anything else, can I just point out how weird it is that you haven’t teched a single Crashbarrow at this point? That card is often a reason people pick Blood Tech II all on its own, so I was worried about it the whole time… It actually would have been better than Surprise Attack here, since it does the same amount of damage at a much lower cost (only 3 gold instead of 5 for the spell and 2 more for Zane if he isn’t already in play). This is the point where it became clear to me that the sheer size of my units was making this a war of attrition that you wouldn’t be able to keep up with, since every time I played a particularly large unit you would need to spend a bunch of resources to get rid of it – often more than I payed to put it in your way – and with my Surplus helping me regain the hand size I’d lost earlier while you’re forced to spend more cards every turn, eventually I’d just have more options than you.
Definitely a great play here, getting rid of two units and a hero with only two cards. You also realized, probably correctly, that Pirate-Gang Commander was your best option for getting out of this situation. If the game had lasted long enough for you to be able to play one, I’m not sure what would have happened… I don’t think you made any mistakes here, but there sadly weren’t many options at this point.
The final turn. I’m still surprised you didn’t patrol Drakk, since that would have made it that much harder to get to your Base… More to the point, I think you should have played Ogre Recruiter here and patrolled him. That would probably have been enough to prevent me from destroying your Base, though it’s likely that I could’ve got at least one of your Tech buildings… But if I only got one, you could have had a chance.
Overall, I thought you did fairly well considering the lackluster opening. It may not have seemed like it based on that turn-by-turn analysis I just put up there (sorry about how long it is…!), but every time I thought I had you cornered you managed to turn it around again – not to the point where you had the advantage, but at least back to a more even position so I had to put in some effort to regain the advantage. I think the stuff in my Turn 1 analysis is by far the most important, since a good opening sets you up for the rest of the game.
Red really wants to be in a position where it doesn’t have to worry as much about defense as you were forced to this game, but there’s quite a few ways to do that. One option is to do as much damage to their Base as possible right away so that the game won’t last long enough for them to take advantage of your weak defensive options, but you can also keep killing their units so that they can’t do anything – my first game on the forums had me just barely beat @FrozenStorm as Red vs his Green by using Blood Tech II units to keep his board empty just long enough to get a Tech III and a Tech Lab up, letting me play a Pirate Gunship just as he was getting ready to destroy me.
Would you like to trade colors, or try again with the same colors? Either way is fine with me, and both have their advantages – you just saw me use Green, so that should give you some ideas on how to use that (though if you just use the exact same plan I went for I will punish that ), and I’d be happy to show you some of the ways Red can play, but there’s also something to be said for learning more about a color by sticking with it for a while. I will say that I’m probably more rusty in my Red play, for what that’s worth.
@Hobusu Thank your for giving such a great recap! I read it over once and will need to do so again.
The more I play the more I think how important it is to understand the starting deck for each color. At this point I would say it is the most critical part to understand and master. Maybe it is just that way for me. The rest of the game is not as nuanced and easier for me to understand.
As I said before I don’t get red. I play it very “clunkily” . It is obvious I don’t understand the starting deck. What you said up there about the first hand and rounds… I still don’t get. I don’t understand the “why” of red. I usually make the mad man a worker. He does not seem that good to me. Having that said every card I say that about I have been going back and saying to myself I just don’t understand how its supposed to be used. This game is, for me, is not an easy pick up and play kind of game. I don’t think you can just pick this up and intuitively play it with any success. You have to know the math. Although I love the depth I can see how people would easily drop this game after a few times playing it.
I am still discovering a lot about the game. I think that is amazing. It makes this game a master piece.
I actually came out very short because of the learning curve of the spreadsheet. I mentioned that early on. It was either turn 2 or 3 that my teched cards didn’t make it into my deck. I never had a chance to draw them when I should have. No worries beginners folly. It was to late to go all the way back and fix it.
This was a great learning experience. I appreciate your help along the way. I would enjoy another game. Let’s switch colors so I can watch how red is “done”.
I’ll let you go first and it will be casual on my end just like last time.
you missed an opportunity here (Turn 8). If you had spent 1g more, you could have had a lvl 4 drakk, giving frenzy to the glider, and being able to kill Argagarg, thus maxing Drakk, giving you a chance to create some nasty hasted unit next turn.
That’s a good point. At least to begin with, you probably need to learn how to use the starting decks more than anything else. The other parts will start to become more important as you get better, and the nice thing about the starting decks is that they’re each only 10 cards, most of which are relatively simple.
I think the best way of summing up Red is the way Sirlin described how he played it. To paraphrase, he said that he wants to end the game with his board empty, his resources exhausted, and he’d lose next turn… But he won by getting the last point of damage needed onto his opponent’s Base just before it was too late. Again, that’s not the only way to play Red, but the color is designed to support that kind of plan where you race to finish off your opponent before they can stop you. That’s why something like Mad Man is helpful, since there may come a time when you’re doing that strategy when you only need one more point of damage on whatever you’re trying to destroy and you need it right away.
That said, if you’d like me to clarify anything about either the Red starting deck or opening strategy, I’d be happy to! Just let me know what you’re having trouble with.
This is true, there is a lot going on in Codex. I know that before I got the Starter Set I had trouble teaching new players using just the Core Set, but I had a much easier time last week teaching a friend the basics using the Starter Set so there wasn’t as much to focus on at once. We’ll see if he gets lost when I move him up to the full game, though…
Yeah, I knew something like that would happen. Don’t worry about it, you seem to have a much better grasp of it now than before, and everyone makes mistakes with it their first few games.
Sounds good! I’m doing this on my phone, so I’ll edit in thoughts on this turn when I get home.
Edit: Thoughts have been added.
Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($4)
Worker - ($3)
Summon Drakk - ($1)
Recruit the Nautical Dog! - ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info: In Patrol:
Drakk Ramhorn Lv. 1 (1/3)
Nautical Dog (1/1) (Frenzy 1)
Base HP: 20
Economy Info: Cards:
Given this starting hand, I could use Rambaster to start a base race, play Nautical Dog and either Drakk or Jaina to threaten high damage output next turn, or if I’m feeling crazy I could play Bloodburn as a trickshot opening. Since I want to teach Azuset how to use Red, Dog + Hero seems best to bridge the gap between how he seems to think and how Red works. It doesn’t commit to a base race, it’s based on good play for any color (a hero and a 1-gold unit is pretty much always a good opening for player 1), and if I go with Drakk in particular I could reinforce the idea of how powerful granting Frenzy and/or Haste to units can be.
No need to patrol as player 1 against Green, since they have nothing like haste or spells that target opposing patrollers. Workered Bloodburn because it’s hard to find a good chance to play a 3-gold upgrade with such a delayed effect later.
If all goes well, I’d like this to lead into “EricF’s Recommended First Red Plan” of Fire units supported by Drakk’s abilities and spells.
I think you’re misunderstanding the Next Player box. Last game you put 2 in it, which didn’t help at all since @2 isn’t going to tag anyone on the forums, and now you’re using it to tag yourself… It’s really only meant to be used in a free-for-all game where there’s up to five players, so that you can automatically tag the person who goes after you to let them know it’s their turn. Because there’s only two players in our game, I’ve already told the forums to notify me if anyone posts in this thread, so even if you put my username in that box it won’t make a difference.
Edit: Corrected a mistake in my thoughts.
Tech StartingHand Workers
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Build Tech I - ($3)
Recruit Bloodrage Ogre - ($1)
Discard 3, reshuffle, draw 5
Board Info: In Patrol:
Scavenger: Bloodrage Ogre (3/2) (Returns to hand if it didn’t arrive or attack this turn)
Drakk Ramhorn Lv. 1 (1/3)
Nautical Dog (1/1) (Frenzy 1)
Base HP: 20
Tech I HP: 5
Economy Info: Cards:
Ironbark Treant, huh? Makes sense, it would be costly to break through it this turn. Instead I’ll get Bloodrage Ogre ready for some smashing next turn. The only way he can kill it without trading Treant away at a loss is to summon a hero and use either Green starting spell to buff Treant enough to survive the combat, but then he can’t build a Tech I without having his only patroller be that lone hero. (Guess who forgot that he already built Tech I because it wasn’t marked on his board, even after reading that it was built in the turn actions list? This guy!) Just mid-banding Drakk would buff Dog enough for the revenge kill, and then I’d have a max-level Drakk ready to throw hasted units into play… So if he’s paying attention to Drakk’s abilities (or just how many ways Red has to punish a weak patrol), he’ll play another unit to reinforce his patrol instead.
Double Lobber tech to max my chances of getting one next turn, since a Frenzied Lobber is really good value (1 gold for 3 hasted damage). Workered Pillage because, as much as I’d like to keep it around in case I can punish a gold float, I think the other cards will end up being more useful in the long run with the strategy I’m going for. Patrolled Ogre in Scavenger because the extra armor wouldn’t make a difference and I’m only patrolling Ogre, so the gold would make it even easier to punish if he goes for that kill.
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($6)
Worker - ($5)
Recruit Merfolk Prospector (1/1) - ($4)
Recruit Young Treant (02) - ($2)
Draw a card for Young treant.
Summon Argagarg Garg (1/3 L1) - ($0)
Summon Wisp (0/1) with Argagarg Garg
Ironbark Treant (3/2 ( -2 ATK / +2 armor while patrolling.)) trades with Bloodrage Oger
Discard 3, draw 4, reshuffle, draw 1
Board Info: In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Young Treant (0/2+a1)
Elite: Merfolk Prospector (1/1+1atk)
Scavenger: Wisp (0/1)
Argagarg Garg (1/3 L1)
Base HP: 20
Economy Info: Cards:
I have a possible 2-4 attackers this up comming turn. I descided to trade with the oger in hopes to take less damage over all after my weak defences are broken. I was able to get young treant out to fill my hand size to 5 when I draw and get a descent SL out. Merfold was cheap, sadly, I will probably not be able to take advantage of his economic gains. My plan was to start out feral but being able to get a free meat sheild from Garg was too good to pass up. I teched a basy … well becuse its amazing. It will come in handy later in the game when I need to kill hero’s. Then I tecked the Giant Panda to continue fortifying my position.