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Blue balancing suggestions


#21

This might be silly, but how about adding “As long as Arresting Constable is in play, Jail can be played for free from hand” on the Arresting Constable card? Thematic and we all know that the Council loves having the Jail out as well ^^


#22

for being thematic, imo also starter spell cards could cost 0 with constable online. Who better than him can perform arrests and search warrants?


#23

Sure, some combination of Jail, Lawful Search and Arrest being free to play if Arresting Constable is in play could make Law slightly better, without making them over the top.


#24

What if the Building Inspector were a 1/2 instead of a 1/1…?!


#25

Compared to tenderfoot, that is a pretty large improvement.


#26

what if constable ability becomes “arrives or exausts”?


#27

Given that in blue vs black the early game pressure of black is so crushing for blue, how about moving Censorship Council to be a 3 cost, 4HP Tech I building?

This would let Law hard counter Dark Pact / Deteriorate much earlier in the game when Black always wants to play loads of cards and Blue is weakest. I’ve never been very enamoured with Tax Collector, so I wouldn’t mind getting rid of him, or retooling him for Tech II. This would leave Law Tech I focussed on siezing card advantage and hindering the enemy’s ability to counter it.

My only concern would be the interplay with Peace Tech II as a way to double down on card advantage.


#28

I really like Tax Collector because you can pinch your opponent’s economy and that’s always fun, that said, it’s situational because I find I don’t have nearly as many opportunities to use them when my opponent is Player 1.

As far as Censorship Council being Tech I, I think it would be difficult to get it into play without having it blown up almost immediately. It’s the same reason Jail is a difficult play in that match up.


#29

Yeah I appreciate the board pressure black typically brings is pretty brutal. A huge part of that pressure is that Black has so many ways to produce card advantage to recover/facilitate multiple cards played per turn. The idea for bringing council forward occured to me along with a notion that the things Blue starter can punish/enforce don’t intersect well with what makes Black so strong.

Alternative (probably crazy ideas):

  1. Jail to 4HP
  2. Swap Jail and Censorship Council, Council to 3g/4HP
  3. Tax Collector and Jail swapped, Tax Collector to 2/2

1 is about making Jail harder to kill so limiting multi-unit strats early
2 is about forcing black to “play fair” from the start and takes Deteriorate/Haunt/Dark Pact mostly off the table (also relocates Jail to “Law” which seems good flavour wise)
3 is about giving Blue an extra Deteriorate resistant Tech 0 that sometimes costs 1g


#30

I think making Lawful Search cost 0 is the cleanest change, and while it is really good, I don’t think it would break anything (Young Treant gives similar early deck cycling). Free hand views doesn’t have a material affect on the game, but highly synergies with Blues core strategies, and the overall power level of blue is low enough that a significant boost shouldn’t put it to God tier.


#31

I’ve played dozens of game with Mono-Blue, and my conclusions are :

  • Blue needs anti-hero support
  • Truth spells are redundant
  • Tech II Law is very good in FFA (5 players) and really bad in 2 player games
  • Peace Tech II’s spam strat is so straightforward than it eclipses any other Mono-Blue strat, even Peace’s buildingwrecker strats
  • Truth Tech II isn’t fun to play, but it’s neither OP or very bad.
  • Some cards are stupidly bad, Arresting Constable, Debilitator Alpha, General’s Hammer, Mind Control
  • The real problem is that Black Starter is so much polyvalent it’s impossible to play around it. StW destroys Tech IIIs, Deteriorate pops Illusions, Thieving Imp is insanely good and the same for ALL these 10 cards !

My suggestions :

  • Total rework of mono-blue
  • Nerf Black starter deck
  • Basically total rework of Codex, it’s not a competitive game yet

#32

I don’t think I completely agree with all of your points, but I strongly identify with the need for anti-hero support and the sheer power of the Peace Garrison/Sergeant engine being the sort of mindless default for Blue. I actually enjoy playing Truth Tech II, but I think it doesn’t really work in a satisfying way. I think if you’re doing it successfully, it mostly means the game is already yours. Granted, this kind of analysis is not my strong suit, I’m just going by my own experiences and intuition.

I don’t think Mind Control is STUPIDLY bad, but it’s frustrating that Community Service eclipses it. I often struggle with blue spells because it’s hard to keep a board to take advantage of them. Injunction and Elite Training are excellent examples of this. If Blue doesn’t have units, they can’t really take advantage of these very well. Injunction can at least stall your opponent a bit, but, because of cost, I find that I often can’t put down a good enough set of units to stall successfully.

I always want Debilitator Alpha to work, but it’s just not worth it, especially because when I need a wall, it’s almost certainly because Rook or Calamandra are giving me some trouble with their big, meaty bodies.


#33

100% agree with you
I think that the Mind Control card is cool in itself but you’ve already tons to do with your money as Quince to disrupt opponent’s units. If Quince survives so long you’ve probably already won the game. I’ve probably exaggerated when saying it’s stupidly bad. I just haven’t seen it used at all.

Yeah Tech II Truth isn’t that bad but it’s a bit an all-or-nothing gamble. I’m really surprised Quince went to that direction because Yomi’s Quince (you’re still the best Yomi Quince right ?) seems totally the opposit.
Yomi’s Quince always has at least two options, he doesn’t lie (he even reveals the face card he’s going to play) and he’s about depleting the opponent of his fast throws on some matchups.
Codex’s Quince has one gameplan, sticks to it, has to lie to make it work and is 100% proactive and 0% adaptative. When you’ve teched the illusion machine, going back is almost impossible.

The same with Debilitator Alpha ! I’m about 100% convinced that he was supposed to work against units and heroes but the game designer forgot it when they wrote the card’s text. IMO porcupine and gorgon are way better.
Codex is full of these useless cards (Rickety Mine, The Boot…) that are never seen in serious matches.


#34

Truth spells are not all bad. Free Speech is technically blues only anti-hero measure, and it can be pretty effective, but it suffers similar problems as injunction, in that using it means not doing other important things. Hallucination is too difficult to set up for big gains. It would be vastly improved if it said “until your next upkeep” to cause problems with growth and peace engines, or vandy’s maxband. Its also just silly it can’t target tech 3s.

Mind Control should be a lot cheaper than Community Service/ 3g seems fair, for having a max Quince alive long enough to cast it.


#35

Yes, I definitely agree with reducing the cost of Mind Control, especially because part of the benefit of Community Service is that you can actively reduce your opponent’s hand size while also depriving them of a good Tech II unit. When I first looked at it, I didn’t put together how obnoxious Community Service really is. I think it’s among Blue’s best answer to Present Tech II. You don’t have to worry about Hyperions and Tricycloids if you steal them.

Yeah, I would love to have Hallucination/Dreamscape come together but if you’re doing that, you’re not putting down a board and, once again, you can’t really take advantage of it. I would be delighted if Hallucination had use outside of comboing with Dreamscape. Maybe if it allowed you to copy the unit(s) you target onto an existing Mirror Illusion or if the unit(s) you target with it dies, you get a free Mirror Illusion. I don’t think that would be ludicrous, but game balance isn’t my bailiwick.

@Castanietzsche I wouldn’t say I’m the best Quince, but I think we can definitely say that I’m the most active. :wink: But yeah, Truth Tech II is basically always gunning for the same things. You want Reteller to keep your hand up, you need Macciatus to give your Illusions teeth, and you need Eyes of the Chancellor to keep Macciatus alive.


#36

I think a big problem with Hallucination is that mono-blue doesn’t have enough options to actually target things after turning them to illusions. The one time I teched it (as mono-blue vs. mono-purple, trying to answer Hives IIRC), I went through the entire blue codex looking for cards that target enemy units.
The only efficient ones imo are Bigby’s midband (which requires a turn of setup), Boot Camp, and of course Drill Sergeants. It might actually be better with another starter set (Deteriorate, Grappling Hook, Spore Shambler and Bloodburn spring to mind). One thing I was bummed about was that Elite Training can’t target enemy units, as that could’ve been a cool combo. Granted, that would make it weaker against Flagbearers, but who plays Flagbearers against blue anyway?


#37

I always thought it would be fun to go into Law Tech II, play an Insurance Agent targeting a big unit, play Dreamscape, and then play another Insurance Agent targeting the previously insured unit and then get lots of money and draw a card. Making that work however is…not super feasible.


#38

Well, there is the consideration that Blue should not be great at removal, and making illusions and popping them is theoretically powerful removal. Removal and damage are flavors other specs are supposed to have.

Really, the flavor of Blue should be control and copying, so a spell in Truth being an upgraded version of Manufactured Truth would be kinda nice. Especially something that is “until your next upkeep.” Or maybe instead of spectral Hound, have a unit illusion that “arrives: this becomes a copy of target Tech 0 or 1 unit”. These still don’t really address the problems with blue v black though. Most of those problems have to be addressed in the starter decks.


#39

One thing I should say about Community Service vs Mind Control is that Community Service can miss, and that practically hands the game over to the other player, plus Mind control can hit their best patroller. I agree that Mind Control should be cheaper, but it wont make much difference, as stated if you’ve got a max level quince, they probably don’t have much of a board.

Regarding both against Purple (as the one bit I know most about), I’ve seen Mind Control hit my Immortals before when I’ve been taking it slow, but I don’t really tech Hyperion’s/Tricyloids against blue, due to the threat of Community service, and Purple has some of the best answers against both (Undo suddenly looks really good, and Assimilates happily takes your mind control)


#40

Just skimming over these. Censorship is a very strong and unique effect. It’s also next to useless in first 2 turns of the game since your opponent likely goes 1card+worker anyway already. I just don’t see it in starter deck. Jail at least can act as a pseudo-removal.

Tax Collector @ T0 steps on Pillage’s toes too much? Idk. It’s also suddenly super strong power creep over all other t0 2g 2/2s in the game. I could see Tax Collector being a T1 2g 3/3 maybe.

My gut reaction is “THAT’S OP”.
Young Treant is a 2g 0/2 can’t attack. He loses 2 attack and an ability to attack to give you cycling. Lawful for 0g is all upside, no opportunity cost. I just don’t like that sort of stuff. There is 0 strategy involved in using it. You never worker it, because why would you?

Making LS 0g makes it too bland, too obvious.

I could see adding “Your opponent loses 1g” text on Lawful Search. Maybe.

  • I actually dig some sort of new anti-hero tools. I played Blue with neutral starter a bunch lately, and merely having access to stupid Wither was game-changing.

  • Still disagree about basic Truth spells. FS is obv. good, Hallucination, while somewhat niche, still has good in-color combo potential that comes up regularly (DS, Bootcamp, Hallucination #2, Bigby, Arrest, Porky). Dreamscape is a lategame wincon in and of itself; You should not evaluate it as your standard spell.

  • Yeah, Flagstone Garrison’s “problem” is it’s the main thing keeping Monoblue afloat in the first place. Everything else is much narrower “niche”.

  • I like Truth Tech II ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I stand by my previous suggestion to give Resist 1 to Tiger and not touch it otherwise. But I never got into Yomi, so I can’t relate to frustration about unmet expectations on that front.

  • I kinda agree on Hammer, it probably could cost 2g and not be broken. But have to test it. Base race Onimaru is something I’ve pulled off many times, and Hammer is playable in that one niche already. But in that niche 2g vs 3g never matters. Having 2g Hammer might open up some strategies involving Hammering Tech II, however.

  • The more I play against Black Starter the more I agree with a camp that proposes nerfing Deteriorate to 1g. It’s the cleanest change that I can see to screw with their insane tempo. That 1g matters VERY often.

Yeah, let’s not quite go there. Sure, some cards are bad and some specs are bad, but having a few bad things is not an end of the world. Top tier is fairly diverse and interesting, and a minor hit to Black might be all we need to make it even better.

OH MY GOD does Mind Control actually cost 5g? That’s ridiculous :scream: No wonder I basically never play it either.

Please don’t suggest Hallucination targeting Tech 3s. Even Doom Grasp does not target Tech 3s. We want to buff Blue to playable, not make it the ultimate control machine of unstoppable answers.

Okay, I’ve been postponing my Injunction rant for a long time, now’s a good time as ever.

It’s not a “stall” spell. You never tech it when you need to “stall”. When you need to “stall” you tech fucking walls like Brave Knight or Scribe or smth.

Injunction is 100% tempo spell. It’s kinda like Sap on steroids from Hearthstone. You play Injunction when you are either slightly ahead or more or less equal on board to compound your advantage and deny comeback to opponent. Injunction clears patrol zone, denying Tech + Scav bonuses (possibly recouping 1g+card cost just by this virtue) and lets you go full-out offensive, dictating trades and taking out Tech II. I’ve used it many times successfully this way and basically winning the game on the spot. It’s especially good against freshly developed multiple T1 walls like Argonauts or Centaurs.

Slightly offtopic, but largest Russian event was recently won by monopurple. Tbh, I’m slowly drifting to an idea that monopurple might be monoblack-level good. Sure, it’s not as oppressive early, but it’s very good at defensive openings that help him get to mid/late, and it’s horrifying there with all the combos and answers.

P.S.
Oh, and a small update on 1g Jurisdiction. It kinda broke the game :sweat_smile: Turns out, bypassing the risk of teching incorrect situational spell is very strong at 1g. It feels too un-Codexy, ignoring that core tenet of “predict successfully the board state 2 turns ahead with your tech and be rewarded for it”.

The best suggested version we are looking to test for now is 2g Jurisdiction that lets you peek at opponent’s hand or discard.