That’s about in line with what my usual Black vs. Purple experience is
Except that for some reason it’s always super hard to keep the game slow enough to prevent Tech II from ever being erected/surviving; and if I Dark Pacted I’d better go balls deep on that never-T2 plan or I’m legit toast. Sinking 5 damage per turn into that stupid building is taxing.
Vs. Purple the emergent meta around these parts is to go nuts with discard effects. Either you manage to wittle his hand down with Imps/Shadowblades so he has a hard time lining up his combos, or straight up Carrion Curse that Distortion out of his hand.
Discards are expensive, so that may be one of the reasons games tend to last up to Tech II, but Black at 4 cards against Purple with 2 cards is in a good spot even in a Tech II battle.
Sure, Hyperions suck and kinda undo your hard work, but as long as there’s no TD Now! TD TD bullcrap it’s all gucchi. That’s why Vandy with Resist is important — unlike Orpal and Garth, you can’t snipe her with just a Tric + TD, and Hyperion has to respect patrol.
@Metalize thanks for sparking this awesome discussion and sharing your experiences!
I am, as SNB says, happy to offer my thoughts on Black in general, Black specifically against Purple, and of course, the nightmare that is Blue vs Black.
I contend that Bluecoat is not as useful as you claim, and invite you to show me a specific matchup (via a fixed opening vs it) where it earns its place. I will be happy to be shown mistaken
I also invite you to show me this P1T1 Blue vs Black opening you feel gets Blue a decently high win rate. I have a pretty long resume of blue vs black games, and I think even if an expert player were to fix Blue’s first three turns of draws, one could not best a 2-8 record against an expert black player drawing randomly (that’s gut feel number, I’d love to see it proven wrong)
As for “does Blue starter need changes”, I still feel strongly that changing Lawful Search to an upgrade (instead of a spell) which could be sacrificed, at any time, for its same effect, is a worthwhile buff to explore. If the flavoring seems off on it with that change, I think you could rename it “Search Warrant” with the same art to make it more “noun-y” and it would be a small buff that would
Offer Blue some deck-thinning (it could really use it in general, similar to how White can use Safe Attacking)
Specifically aid Blue in counter-playing Black’s early tempo by utilizing perfect information without risking giving up a hero kill
Not be a very significant buff in Blue’s other mono matchups
Make Blue starter more attractive in a multi-color deck
I’m definitely not on board with giving Newsman an ability to block buildings, as I don’t see that as a necessary buff. Newsie is pretty good where he is, if I would suggest any buff to him it would be allowing him to pay gold (1 or 2) to change his number.
I agree 100% with GatG and Constable changes.
Jurisdiction I’ve always felt should cost 1g, but I would be a little worried about what that could do in some multi-color decks.
TL:DR; I love this discussion, let’s throw down some gauntlets, make some bold predictions, and check some stuff out!
I can appreciate the argument for bluecoat musketeer a little. A while back I was schooled in a blue v green game where the bluecoat was very effective. That said I doubt it applies to blue v black. But I don’t think bluecoat has to be important to that matchup.
I would like to see a layout of plays/hands by blue and black that gets blue to tech 2 on decent footing. My suspicion is that you would have to line up both the black and blue hands just so.
I’ll admit that calling it a Search Warrant does go some way toward soothing my objections toward the idea, though Lawful Search is a more flavorful name (since it can be cast pretty much at any time with little to no warning, calling it a “Lawful” search implies something about the laws in Flagstone). I’m not convinced it would be as small a change as you think, though, and it could end up being too good in other matchups to be able to play it without having anything else in play to cast it and then just leave it there for whenever it’ll be most useful. You could be right that it’s only a small improvement, but my gut is still unhappy about it and I’m not entirely sure why.
I’m not really concerned about that, partly because I care far more about mono-color balance than multi-color balance and partly because I don’t think it’ll result in anything worse than your Nightmare codex…
I’d love to test some of these changes with you or anyone else who’s interested, though I personally would prefer not to be involved in the Blue/Black testing for fear of contaminating the results with my inexperience on both sides. I’d be happy to test any other Blue/mono matchup, especially with Red, Green, or White since I’m most experienced with those.
@Metalize, would you be willing to try learning how to play over the forums? I’d love to play against you, with or without testing anything, to see how differently you play compared to the regulars here!
I did not want to answer without checking out the stuff you linked first, discovered (to my amusement) that I’ve already investigated half of those threads some months ago.
The catch in my opinion was that, quote
Basically, Onimaru + TD opener and having the right combat trick in second hand lets Blue achieve a firm enough grip of the board for a good game to happen. In my experience so far, at least. Although it’s still much easier for Blue to screw up than for Black, I admit.
Say, in this game [MMM1] Game 10: P1 Blue (Nekoatl) vs P2 Black (FrozenStorm) - #2 by FrozenStorm, Nekoatl goes for Jail on Turn 2, while I would’ve opted for Arrest into smack your base to 16 and threaten Art Of War. I’ve played that very same opener yesterday in a local meetup, and we’ve discussed how this line makes Dark Pact unplayable, since TD ping plus single T4 AoW puts Black’s base at 8, while Black can’t really afford teching answers for a potential T3 Max Oni yet.
Yours (and Bomber’s and Eric’s and I’m probably forgetting someone else) posts provoked me to look into Blue vs Black in the first place. After reading some of your PbFs and discussions I decided that I should start with easier thing first to figure out what’s happening, before tackling Blue as P2. So, for P2 Blue, I don’t have a good enough sample size or at least a gut feeling yet, and, for echo chamber reasons, I try to insulate myself from too much of exposure. For me, P1 Blue feels “tough, but winnable with some reasonable luck”. Probably not worse than 40-60.
The standard line of teching for black I steer my opponents towards is DP+BC first, then two situational cards depending on what’s going on, then figure out whether Metamorph or Shrine+Dozers are a better choice for lategame.
I very seldomly go for Truth or Law lategame, since FSGs are too good of a consistency enabler, and I feel Blue desperately needs his combos to line up in this matchup. I do have some positive experience utilizing Censorship against Black — it denies both Dark Pact and Deteriorate+StW combos! — but the rest of Law Tech II is so bad here it makes me dead inside a bit. It might be that Law was supposed to make this matchup balanced, but it got decimated at last stage development. Not only Tech II, but I’ve read Scribes also saw some nerfs and my guess would be Community Service used to cost 4g for a long time.
I like the name Yeah, I guess making it a sacrifice-able upgrade could be interesting for the reasons you listed, but there are a few counter-points there, namely
Spending 1g on something that does not affect the board is a no-no for Blue (vs Black) in the first 2-3 turns, so it might only help Blue in mittelspiel or later.
It’s a Starter change. Every Starter change that does not affect first crucial three turns of a game is wasted opportunity.
Lighter touch. The fewer changes we manage to make to improve things, the better; This especially is true for Starter decks, the most important part of the game bar maybe Hero cards themselves.
Sacrificial upgrades (and buildings, for that matter) go against intuitive mechanics already established in the game — the theme of Upgrades being, well, permanent Upgrades like in StarCraft.
With all that in mind swapping Lawful Search for a Search Warrant would be somewhat low on my list of Blue changes to study.
Maybe sometime? You seem nice, but for me card games are very much about real time social interactions, and it’s so hard to see actual person through letters on the forum
This might be silly, but how about adding “As long as Arresting Constable is in play, Jail can be played for free from hand” on the Arresting Constable card? Thematic and we all know that the Council loves having the Jail out as well ^^
Sure, some combination of Jail, Lawful Search and Arrest being free to play if Arresting Constable is in play could make Law slightly better, without making them over the top.
Given that in blue vs black the early game pressure of black is so crushing for blue, how about moving Censorship Council to be a 3 cost, 4HP Tech I building?
This would let Law hard counter Dark Pact / Deteriorate much earlier in the game when Black always wants to play loads of cards and Blue is weakest. I’ve never been very enamoured with Tax Collector, so I wouldn’t mind getting rid of him, or retooling him for Tech II. This would leave Law Tech I focussed on siezing card advantage and hindering the enemy’s ability to counter it.
My only concern would be the interplay with Peace Tech II as a way to double down on card advantage.
I really like Tax Collector because you can pinch your opponent’s economy and that’s always fun, that said, it’s situational because I find I don’t have nearly as many opportunities to use them when my opponent is Player 1.
As far as Censorship Council being Tech I, I think it would be difficult to get it into play without having it blown up almost immediately. It’s the same reason Jail is a difficult play in that match up.
Yeah I appreciate the board pressure black typically brings is pretty brutal. A huge part of that pressure is that Black has so many ways to produce card advantage to recover/facilitate multiple cards played per turn. The idea for bringing council forward occured to me along with a notion that the things Blue starter can punish/enforce don’t intersect well with what makes Black so strong.
Alternative (probably crazy ideas):
Jail to 4HP
Swap Jail and Censorship Council, Council to 3g/4HP
Tax Collector and Jail swapped, Tax Collector to 2/2
1 is about making Jail harder to kill so limiting multi-unit strats early
2 is about forcing black to “play fair” from the start and takes Deteriorate/Haunt/Dark Pact mostly off the table (also relocates Jail to “Law” which seems good flavour wise)
3 is about giving Blue an extra Deteriorate resistant Tech 0 that sometimes costs 1g
I think making Lawful Search cost 0 is the cleanest change, and while it is really good, I don’t think it would break anything (Young Treant gives similar early deck cycling). Free hand views doesn’t have a material affect on the game, but highly synergies with Blues core strategies, and the overall power level of blue is low enough that a significant boost shouldn’t put it to God tier.
I’ve played dozens of game with Mono-Blue, and my conclusions are :
Blue needs anti-hero support
Truth spells are redundant
Tech II Law is very good in FFA (5 players) and really bad in 2 player games
Peace Tech II’s spam strat is so straightforward than it eclipses any other Mono-Blue strat, even Peace’s buildingwrecker strats
Truth Tech II isn’t fun to play, but it’s neither OP or very bad.
Some cards are stupidly bad, Arresting Constable, Debilitator Alpha, General’s Hammer, Mind Control
The real problem is that Black Starter is so much polyvalent it’s impossible to play around it. StW destroys Tech IIIs, Deteriorate pops Illusions, Thieving Imp is insanely good and the same for ALL these 10 cards !
My suggestions :
Total rework of mono-blue
Nerf Black starter deck
Basically total rework of Codex, it’s not a competitive game yet
I don’t think I completely agree with all of your points, but I strongly identify with the need for anti-hero support and the sheer power of the Peace Garrison/Sergeant engine being the sort of mindless default for Blue. I actually enjoy playing Truth Tech II, but I think it doesn’t really work in a satisfying way. I think if you’re doing it successfully, it mostly means the game is already yours. Granted, this kind of analysis is not my strong suit, I’m just going by my own experiences and intuition.
I don’t think Mind Control is STUPIDLY bad, but it’s frustrating that Community Service eclipses it. I often struggle with blue spells because it’s hard to keep a board to take advantage of them. Injunction and Elite Training are excellent examples of this. If Blue doesn’t have units, they can’t really take advantage of these very well. Injunction can at least stall your opponent a bit, but, because of cost, I find that I often can’t put down a good enough set of units to stall successfully.
I always want Debilitator Alpha to work, but it’s just not worth it, especially because when I need a wall, it’s almost certainly because Rook or Calamandra are giving me some trouble with their big, meaty bodies.
100% agree with you
I think that the Mind Control card is cool in itself but you’ve already tons to do with your money as Quince to disrupt opponent’s units. If Quince survives so long you’ve probably already won the game. I’ve probably exaggerated when saying it’s stupidly bad. I just haven’t seen it used at all.
Yeah Tech II Truth isn’t that bad but it’s a bit an all-or-nothing gamble. I’m really surprised Quince went to that direction because Yomi’s Quince (you’re still the best Yomi Quince right ?) seems totally the opposit.
Yomi’s Quince always has at least two options, he doesn’t lie (he even reveals the face card he’s going to play) and he’s about depleting the opponent of his fast throws on some matchups.
Codex’s Quince has one gameplan, sticks to it, has to lie to make it work and is 100% proactive and 0% adaptative. When you’ve teched the illusion machine, going back is almost impossible.
The same with Debilitator Alpha ! I’m about 100% convinced that he was supposed to work against units and heroes but the game designer forgot it when they wrote the card’s text. IMO porcupine and gorgon are way better.
Codex is full of these useless cards (Rickety Mine, The Boot…) that are never seen in serious matches.
Truth spells are not all bad. Free Speech is technically blues only anti-hero measure, and it can be pretty effective, but it suffers similar problems as injunction, in that using it means not doing other important things. Hallucination is too difficult to set up for big gains. It would be vastly improved if it said “until your next upkeep” to cause problems with growth and peace engines, or vandy’s maxband. Its also just silly it can’t target tech 3s.
Mind Control should be a lot cheaper than Community Service/ 3g seems fair, for having a max Quince alive long enough to cast it.
Yeah, I guess making it a sacrifice-able upgrade could be interesting for the reasons you listed, but there are a few counter-points there, namely