[BALANCE TESTING] FrozenStorm (Black + Vandy Ban) vs NekoAtl (Blue)

P2T4


Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Scribe
Scribe


STARTING HAND
Flagstone Garrison
Manufactured Truth
Porkhand Magistrate
Flagstone Garrison
Lawful Search
Spectral Aven
Overeager Cadet


WORKERS
Bluecoat Musketeer
Arrest
Jail
Manufactured Truth


NextHand

Reputable Newsman
Building Inspector
Overeager Cadet
Traffic Director


Discard

Lawful Search
Scribe
Scribe
Flagstone Garrison
Flagstone Garrison


Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($9)
Rebuild Tech II
Sirus Quince - ($7)
Lawful Search - ($6)
Overeager Cadet
Spectral Aven - ($4)
Porkhand Magistrate - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 2, draw 4


Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Porkhand Magistrate (2/3A)
  • :psfist: Elite: L1 Sirus Quince (2/3)
  • :ps_: Scavenger: Overeager Cadet (2/2)
  • :pschip: Technician: Mirror Illusion (0/1)
  • :target: Lookout: Spectral Aven (2/2) Flying, resist 1

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 18
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Peace)
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 5

Gold:

  • Gold: 1
  • Workers: 9

Thoughts

Gah! I got so caught up in recording my thoughts that I failed to implement them! Kinda worked out in my favor, though, as I didn’t account for a max-Vandy-doom-tech-break. Now I need to accelerate my cycle as I rebuild. With 4 units in deck and 2 in Graveyard, I think I can bait out a Carrion Curse whiff, maybe? Hopefully, he’ll take that option rather than rushing a 2-hero Meta…

This both doesn’t feel that different than normal, and also feels like it’s teetering on a knife’s edge and is more likely to come down to draws.

Set 3, Game 1, Player 1, Turn 5

P1 Black w/ Demon Taxes vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Sacrifice the Weak
Carrion Curse
Metamorphosis
Soul Stone
Deteriorate

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (8)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Death and Decay, Dark Pact
Shadow Blade, Metamorphosis
Soul Stone, Carrion Curse
Dark Pact, Bone Collector


Main:

  • Skeleton runs into Porky
  • Haunt runs into Cadet
  • Metamorphosis, Vandy and Orpal hulk out (but a little less than normal) (2)
  • Orpal kills Porky, plague spreads to Cadet and Aven, who both die, you get 1g (1)
  • Vandy breaks your tower, your base to 16
  • Worker (0)
Workers

Sacrifice the Weak, Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 3 Draw 5
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Vandy (5/6 lvl 6)
  • Orpal (3/3 lvl 6)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 8

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 9

End of Turn Hand

Graveyard
Shadow Blade
Thieving Imp
Skeleton Javelineer
Dark Pact

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Here’s where we’re gonna find out if Meta is still “worth”. I’m banking on just an OC as a tech-able drop here, lawful search potentially possible to dig up a Garrison, but hopefully no Free Speech. As long as no Free Speech, I think this is a strictly correct play, next turn I maybe try to dig up a DnD, but more likely just trying to throw some discard at 'em and tech up.


I kind of agree, I thought the increase cost would make it harder for you to suppress me, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It kinda makes sense, you still have the same tools available, after all. I think maybe where the difference comes in is otherwise you might’ve been able to afford a Tech II and a 3rd hero for your Meta, which would have been impossible for me to recover from, whereas right now it feels like my back’s against the wall, but a recovery doesn’t feel impossible. But, I’m still getting a feel for this version of the matchup, so I’m not confident about any of this yet.

P2T5


Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Free Speech
Free Speech


STARTING HAND
Building Inspector
Traffic Director
Overeager Cadet
Reputable Newsman


WORKERS
Bluecoat Musketeer
Arrest
Jail
Manufactured Truth
Building Inspector


NextHand

Flagstone Garrison
Porkhand Magistrate
Flagstone Garrison


Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float + Scavenger - ($11)
Tower - ($8)
Maxband Quince - ($4)
Reputable Newsman - ($2)
Overeager Cadet, mirrored
Quince and Cadet reduce your Heroes’ Hall to 1 HP
Worker - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 1, reshuffle, draw 3


Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Overeager Cadet (2/2A) {A}
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician: Reputable Newsman (0/3) $8 blocked
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • L5 Sirus Quince (1/5)
  • Overeager Cadet (2/2) {Copy of A}

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 16
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Peace)
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 3
  • Deck: 8
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 1
  • Workers: 10

Thoughts

So he is going with 2 hero Meta after all, and he broke the Tower instead of the Tech 2, so I’m sure he plans to follow up with D&D. I know he doesn’t have Deteriorate or StW in hand, but he might use Dark Pact to draw one or both. Either way, Tower can only detect one attacker, so I can’t stop him from using D&D, but I can probably limit the damage. Going after the Heroes’ Hall to attempt to stress his economy.

Right everything still more or less does the same things, and I always had more than enough gold to do them before, it’s just that now I have to actually commit to a decision and don’t get to eat my cake and have it too. It’s 2-hero meta or it’s tech 2, instead of 3-hero meta and tech 2.

Set 3, Game 1, Player 1, Turn 6

P1 Black w/ Demon Taxes vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Graveyard
Shadow Blade
Thieving Imp
Skeleton Javelineer
Dark Pact
Voidblocker + Dark Pact (DP1)
Soul Stone + BC (DP2)

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (9)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Voidblocker, Death and Decay
Death and Decay, Dark Pact
Shadow Blade, Metamorphosis
Soul Stone, Carrion Curse
Dark Pact, Bone Collector


Main:

  • Dark Pact, rs draw 2 (8)
  • Shadow Blade OC, discard #3 of 3, backline dies (5)
  • Orpal kills Newsie, takes 1, you draw 1
  • Dark Pact, draw 2 (4)
  • Thieving Imp, discard #1 of 3 (1)
  • Vandy kills Quince, takes 1, levels fizzle
  • Worker (0)
Workers

Sacrifice the Weak, Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 5 Draw 5
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 14
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 1

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Vandy (5/5 lvl 6)
  • Orpal (3/2 lvl 6)
  • Thieving Imp (2/2)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 1
  • Disc: 8

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 10

End of Turn Hand

Carrion Curse
Deteriorate
Death and Decay
Metamorphosis
Pestering Haunt

End of Turn Discard

Dark Pact
Shadow Blade
Dark Pact
Bone Collector
Soul Stone
Voidblocker
Skeleton Javelineer
Graveyard

My Thoughts

Teching a Voidblocker and the other DnD… I’m going to want to do one of those 2 next turn. Most likely I’m Shadow Blade + Tech up + Attack but we’ll see.

Well I drew the Voidblocker… that kind of discourages me from teching up, plus I think Blade + Imp + clear the board leaves Neko on two cards and almost no chance to block DnD. Sounds like a plan, but JIC I’ll do the other DP to see if I can carrion curse instead of Imp

No CC, okay Imp + clear as planned!


Since Sirlin made another Peace unit suggestion, I thought it would be worth sharing it here along with the specific details of the previous one:

Flagstone Spy: Replace stealing 1g when dealing combat damage to a building with immunity to damage while attacking and not detected
Debilitator Alpha: Its ability can affect enemy heroes and works regardless of what the enemy attacks (but it still needs to be Squad Leader), maybe lower its cost by 1g

Still no firm opinions on what to do about Air Hammer (I don’t even remember if it’s come up?) and Garrison (I’ll post the opinions shared about it here over on Discord since Sirlin’s active there, see what he thinks).

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Air Hammer as a 3/4 for 4 gold with the same ability would be a nice quality of life improvement. Then it could evade 3 damage spells and patrol better before it starts attacking.

Not taking damage when attacking feels a lot like flying / swift strike / long-range… not something that jumps out and says, “Oh, that’s cool, I’m gonna build a Peace deck and try that!” Replacing the gold steal with a discard 1 card of choice is much more compelling, especially since gold steal is easy to play around, and Blue already has some from Tax Collector. Also, the discard would combo well with Reputable Newsman, making it more viable as an alternative to Free Speech.

Having Debilitator Alpha reduce all attackers, even those that bypass him, is much more appealing than its current state, though it’d still be somewhat niche in that it would be easily countered by any mechanic that pulls him out of SQL… though I guess allowing his ability to work elsewhere could be a bit OP. Just throwing it out there, but maybe having his ability trigger when he starts a turn as SQL and remain in effect until end of turn (maybe ending early if he’s killed…?). Another option would be to reduce the attack of anything that attacks him or bypasses him, that would give more flexibility to how to use him as a patroller, and even if he got sidelined, his ability wouldn’t feel completely useless because it would still protect him from attacks, just not anything behind him… and it would allow use of 2 Alphas to discourage sneaky things from ignoring them.

Air Hammer just feels weird… like, it’s pretty rare for 5 attack to be better than 4 when attacking a damaged building. That includes what, a base, Mythmaking enhanced Legendary buildings, and… I think that’s it? Regardless of the practicality of his ability, feeling like half of the bonus gets wasted most of the time is off-putting psychologically. And having to lead it with another damage source to break a tech building is more awkward than just having a Drill Sergeant dump a pair of runes on it (or on a Spy, or both), especially if you want to use more than one tech-breaker at a time… not to mention playing the Drill Sergeant is a much more attractive long-term value proposition than spending that card on a Traffic Director or General’s Hammer. Maybe reducing Air Hammer’s base attack and having the bonus attack also affect damaged units would be interesting? Not sure it’s actually a good idea, just throwing it out there as an option.

Drill Sergeant is good, but in most cases, not as good as Blooming Ancient… the notable exceptions being when running forecast or playing against Jail.

Patriot Gryphon is also the least attractive Gryphon, because it’s ability is very much a win-more ability, and as a general rule, I tend to prefer cards that push me from losing to winning over cards that push me from winning to winning faster. I’m not saying it isn’t good in its own way, but it’s definitely not my style.

Regarding Garrison being too good or not, I think it’s fair to point out that both Frozen and I likely have our opinions influenced by our experience with Black vs. Blue, within which Garrison seems all but mandatory to survive Black’s hand destruction, and yet still they get countered more often than not by being directly discarded, card-starved into not drawing them quickly enough to be helpful, or simply countered by building destruction. But the deployment cost is non-trivial as well… if you don’t immediately follow them up with sufficient weeny cannon-fodder, they’re just gonna get destroyed, and buildings don’t hit back, meaning they’re a bad investment if you can’t protect them. And if you’re playing a small number of expensive cards, chain card draw isn’t nearly as important… in that case you can get by just fine with any of the other sources of card draw in Codex, if you even need any at all. In the ideal case, Garrison provides incredible value, but in the average case, it’s not nearly as exciting. To be fair, the ideal case may be all that matters if you’re trying to prevent a single strategy from being overpowered (e.g. Garrison + free Virtuoso or Blood units), but all I’m trying to say is that I disagree with the premise that Garrison is so good that you should always use it when it’s available.

P.S. The idea of not having to choose a spec and being able to mix and match cards from my entire codex is incredibly exciting, more so than I think I can convey with text… but this is coming from the guy who proposed the “All Cards” variant, so there’s a slight chance I could be a statistical outlier.

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Funny you should say that, Sirlin suggested that as an alternative change for Flagstone Spy between when I posted his earlier idea and when you posted your response. It would be nice if you joined/participated in the Discord chat so I don’t have to keep being the man in the middle here… :sweat_smile:

1 Like

It wasn’t my idea; I read through the Discord discussion as a result of your earlier post, and was particularly impressed with that suggestion of his.

3 Likes

I don’t see my opinion of Garrison being colored by this. I base my opinion much more on all my tournament experience here on the forums. Garrison isn’t even the crux of every game for Purple Peace decks. Anarchy and Past tech 2 saw perhaps a combined 40% of total play for that deck, and that’s a multicolor deck specifically designed to take advantage of it!

Garrison is a cool card with cool flavor and a neat affect. To Neko’s point, it’s a building, which brings with it plenty of building weakness (not hitting back, not protecting itself, weak to building destruction, insane to play against Assimilate, etc). It wouldn’t be nearly as problematic looking if it didn’t happen to get insane value out of Battle Suits comboing with Overeager Cadet, Calypso Vystari, and Hooded Executioner.

What if instead of going after Garrison for nerfs, we said Battle Suits only applies to Purple soldiers and mystics? Would people still feel like Garrison was a huge problem?

If I were to think of any nerf for Garrison, it would either be to decrease its health to 3, increase its cost to 4, or maybe only draw when playing a Soldier? But all of those feel like treating a symptom of a larger problem that

  • OC with Suits is crazy good on its own
  • Hoodie with Suits is good on its own
  • D.Alpha, Spy and (to a lesser extent) Hammer all feel like meh options.

The proposed buffs to D.Alpha and Spy make Garrison less “the only thing you build tech 2 peace for” in a nice way to me.

This is 100% how I feel about Air Hammer also. It sucks to have the ability you’re psyched to get to use on him be 50% “wasted” in practice. I like the suggestion to make him a 2/3 but gets +2 attack against a damaged anything. That’s really fun

Reminder that currently Sirlin cares 0% about multicolor balance, so that wouldn’t affect his perception of it at all.

I know, but I find that disappointing. It feels like a total 180 from what was said at launch, the rulebook is written to allow for it, and it’s a big part of what people find fun and interesting about this genre.

That said, I’m understanding of the position. It’s already a very hard thing to balance the mono game, expecting the multi game to be very balanced is an impossible problem.

I think if he’d realized how much people would fixate on multicolor he would’ve written the rulebook differently.

Anyway, he currently seems to believe that Garrison’s being used pretty much exclusively in mono-color Blue play, or at the very least that it’s being used every time someone goes Peace Tech II and people are going Peace Tech II to use it more than is intended / healthy for the game. Whether or not that’s true is something I can’t say without digging deep into the history of forum play. And I see his point, people decided Garrison + Drill Sergeant was the best Peace Tech II strategy so quickly that other Peace Tech II strategies probably never got explored enough to see their real power level clearly.

Mixing and matching cards to try to find cool/fun combos is irresistible to Johnny players like myself, so if we’re allowed to pull from 26 card sets, we’ll eagerly do so…

I can sympathize with Sirlin’s position from the perspective of mono-Blue in particular. Like, half the tech I units seem like they were made explicitly to be used with the Garrison/Sergeant combo, so it’s an attractive build path, especially in matchups where the more expensive tech I units tend to flop for one reason or another. (Part of that is that the Drill Sergeant is the most efficient tool for aggressive use of the Illusion mechanic available to mono-Blue, i.e. combo it with Dreamscape and use it to rapid-fire kill off enemy “Illusion” units.)

It would be nice if you joined/participated in the Discord chat so I don’t have to keep being the man in the middle here…

Okay, I tried, but that format is too overwhelming for me, sorry. I have a tendency to get a single idea in my head and have it branch out into many related thoughts, sometimes to the point where I have trouble keeping track of them all, and sometimes taking an hour or more to process. So, when I try to keep up with multiple people putting forth a variety of ideas in real-time, it overloads my brain and wears me out.

6 Likes

That’s fine, I understand. It’s definitely overwhelming for me sometimes, and it took me a while to get comfortable enough with Discord that I felt ready to type anything in there!

For the benefit of anyone not checking Discord, the most recent idea for Drill Sergeant and Garrison that Sirlin has suggested is Sergeant not gaining the runes himself but instead giving them directly to each unit you play as that unit arrives, plus Garrison only working with Tech II and III units and gaining some (unspecified) additional effect to compensate for the loss of the Tech 0 and I units counting.

To be honest, it sounds like the version of Codex that Sirlin is experimenting with is significantly different enough from the one we’re familiar with that I’m not sure how helpful our feedback can be. In card games like this, the value of a card depends entirely on the context (stupid example: a card that costs $2 to deal 2 damage to anything is great in a game where every other card costs $3 to do so, or terrible in a game where every other card costs $1 to), and it sounds to me like Sirlin is experimenting in a very different context… not only involving changes to multiple cards, but also fundamental game rules, whereas our frame of reference is limited to the published card set and rules.

3 Likes

Yeah, there are some significant changes in just the stuff I know about (including at least one big thing he’s asked us not to talk about outside of the patrons-only channel on Discord), I just thought it would be worth noting what he’s said on the subject. I can stop reposting it here if you feel it’s not worth it.

Well, that almost makes me regret boycotting Patreon. But, even beyond that, I wonder if there’s still value in continuing these matches? I mean, I’m happy to keep going if they’re helping, but AFAIK Sirlin only mentioned an interest in seeing the matchup with Vandy removed, so if the subsequent games aren’t helping, I wonder if it’s better to just wait and see what’s cooking behind the scenes…?

I’d still be interested in a fan patch since Codex 2 (it’s almost certainly not going to be a 2nd Edition if anything new happens, he’s sworn off those because of how much backlash he’s gotten over the years…) is currently only a hobby project for him, not a main thing he’s working on. But at least for Sirlin’s purposes the data you gathered already is probably sufficient.

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