[BALANCE TESTING] FrozenStorm (Black + Vandy Ban) vs NekoAtl (Blue)

Game 6, Player 2, Turn 7

P2 Black but no Garth or his Spells vs P1 Blue

Starting Hand

Skeleton Javelineer
Plague Lab
Dark Pact
Abomination
Dark Pact + Pestering Haunt (dp1)
Death and Decay + Death and Decay (dp2)

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (10)
  • no techs
All Teched Cards

Cursed Ghoul, Dark Pact
Death and Decay, Abomination
Abomination, Plague Lab
Carrion Curse, Death and Decay
Dark Pact, Hooded Executioner


Main:

  • Vandy (8)
  • Dark Pact, base to 16 (should have been 18 already from T2 break) draw 2
  • Dark Pact, base to 14, draw 2
  • Death and Decay, everything but Quince dies, T1 and HH break (your base nets to 8hp) (0)
  • Orpal breaks your tech 2, your base to 6
  • Pestering Haunt
Workers

Deteriorate, Sacrifice the Weak, Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 4 Draw 5
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 14
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Tech2 HP: 5 DISEASE
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Vandy (2/3+1armor lvl 1)
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Orpal (2/2 lvl 6)
  • Pestering Haunt (1/1)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 2
  • Disc: 7

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 10

End of Turn Hand

Hooded Executioner
Carrion Curse
Cursed Ghoul
Thieving Imp
Graveyard

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Should be GG but we’ll see I guess


And that’ll do it, GGs WP.

I gotta say, that run of 6 played out about as I expected, haha. Although, while Vandy was definitely more oppressive in the early game, Orpal was the bigger threat overall in this matchup, which I probably should have expected, but didn’t. I’d say your analysis about Meta being less dangerous with only 2 heroes was spot-on.

I think we’ve demonstrated that Black in general is oppressively more powerful than Blue when the two face off, and that Vandy contributes to that vastly more than Garth does.

If I were to try to balance the two colors, I’d recommend bumping up the cost of both Pestering Haunt and Deteriorate to $1, and changing Vandy’s level scaling to 1-4/5-7/8. If Black still seemed to have an advantage after that (and I don’t really expect that it would), I’d try removing Vandy’s sparkshot and replacing it with the resist 1 from her midband.

3 Likes

GG WP! I’m in 100% agreement, I’m a little surprised how little Garth matters to this matchup but Orpal is equally (if not more) difficult for Blue to deal with and thus, a perfectly complimentary Vandy buddy (not what I originally expected but makes total sense in hindsight). It wasn’t all about Meta (so I feel good having been right about that), but it was all about Death and Decay (underrated ulti, especially w/ Vandy providing board pressure to make room to pull it off).

I would gladly do a series with @Hobusu’s proposed changeset if you (or anyone else) is up for it, but am good to take a break for a week or so first if that’s preferrable.

That change set, for reference, is as follows:

  • Deteriorate now costs 1g
  • Vandy now has resist 1 at Level 1 instead of sparkshot
  • Vandy’s midband is now at Level 4 and doesn’t include resist 1
  • Vandy’s maxband is now at Level 6
  • Dark Pact now costs 1g and deals 1 damage to Vandy in addition to its existing effects
  • Metamorphosis now gives only one +1/+1 rune to each hero it affects
3 Likes

It’s worth noting that the changelist above was compiled by me using suggestions from the #codex channel on Discord, including some from Sirlin himself. I didn’t come up with most of them, though of course I approve of them all, heh.

One alternative idea Sirlin had for Deteriorate seems especially interesting, namely leaving it at 0g to play but making it only able to target exhausted units.

3 Likes

I think Pestering Haunt is more oppressive than Deteriorate (and actually, is the most oppressive card in the Black starter). It’s not limited to units, it can’t be mitigated by Flagbearer / resist / Free Speech / Newsman, and when supported by the Graveyard (or when attacking something with no attack value not protected by a Tower), it can hit something every turn (for free!), which makes it much more difficult to arrange a patrol / backline to survive other aggression, much less prepare for a counterattack. The only ways Blue can defend against it are to proactively kill it (not easy to do in the early game of this matchup), or to target it with Porkhand Magistrate (generally not a good value proposition, and difficult to set up). Building a Tower and breaking the Graveyard (also not particularly easy) can discourage the Haunt’s attacks temporarily, but can’t stop it from hitting when it really hurts, so most of the time, you just have to try not to present any tempting targets, which is extremely limiting. Especially Mirror Illusions. Not being able to use Mirror Illusions to generate threat and/or pad the patrol without burning cards is particularly rough in the face of all those discard mechanics, not to mention making it extremely difficult to protect the Newsman from StW/Exeecutioners, which in turn creates an over-reliance on Free Speech, which is tied to a hero whose abilities are effectively all suppressed and has practically no attack power… that Haunt is such a thorn in my side.

It’s true that Deteriorate has some advantages… it can deal with flying units and pop Illusions (sorry, Aven), but losing a $1 Scavenger or Technician to a Deteriorate, even at $0, isn’t that bad. And, it can reduce a unit’s attack so it can be dog-piled with reduced losses or modify the behavior of StW/Executioner, but the cases where that makes a significant difference seem uncommon enough that I think it’s healthy to have those options in the game, albeit probably not at $0. Still, I’m very skeptical of any change-list that nerfs Deteriorate but not Haunt… and moreover, I’m very skeptical of any change-list that doesn’t nerf Haunt.

As for Vandy’s spells, I honestly don’t have an opinion on what, if anything, should be done with them, as I consider the fact that with Vandy and her spells completely removed, the matchup felt more or less even rather than notably favorable to Blue suggests that some other balance issues exist that should be addressed, and I’d rather judge Vandy’s spells in the context of those changes.

Sirlin’s Deteriorate idea is certainly interesting, but I feel like it would make Black’s options less interesting and make it harder for Blue to use Spectral Flagbearers to defend against it, because normally you want Flagbearers to guard against multiple targeting threats and provide a payoff when they die. The upside, of course, is that it would limit Deteriorate’s effectiveness against players who aren’t attacking, and often early game Blue can’t afford (or even manage) to attack Black, so maybe that could be a strategy for nerfing Black vs. Blue with less impact on Black vs. everything else? Somehow, I have an uneasy feeling that tells me not to be confident about that, though. Like, maybe it’s not such a good idea to design around the assumption that Blue can’t attack Black? I dunno.

7 Likes

Thanks for all this detailed thoughts Neko, I really value your insight into the Blue side of this matchup after all the testing you’ve done with me on it.

I’ve been thinking on it this evening and I agree, Haunt is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this matchup, and it sorta makes sense to nerf him: the other “evasive” one-drops like Smoker and TD have worse drawbacks AND they cost 1, whereas Haunt’s drawback (not patrolling) is not a problem for Black (hello skeleton city, Black is the king of rinky dink patrollers) and its evasion (FULL UNSTOPPABLE) is better than Stealth or “Unstoppable against buildings”, AND IT COSTS ZERO???!? Breaking it down like that and then adding Graveyard’s infinite replay on top as you stated, it does feel totally crazy that its free. I would “add change Haunt to 1g” to the proposed testing list

I also agree with your gut on the “Deteriorate only targets exhausted units”. I don’t think it helps this matchup a lot, and I think it runs of the risk of over-nerfing Black against other colors. Flavor-wise I think it’s a neat idea, but it’s low on my list of priorities of things to explore.

I wonder if, perhaps, 1g + 1 damage to Vandy is too much to nerf Dark Pact? My gut there is I would still tech it pretty frequently, but combined with the Vandy level bands hit I have a hunch in practice it would become kinda like Community Service in its risk level. You’re basically trading Vandy’s combat utility for card econ utility, but you’re almost always wanting to use Vandy because of her combat utility… That’s the original proposal change I’m least sure about. Maybe 0g but 1 damage, or just 1g and no damage, would still be fine? Thoughts?

I also wondered what your thoughts would be on having Vandy’s maxband not target, but instead just buff each player’s weakest units? It could make it less wordy and removes the WTF OP-ness of it in this matchup against Illusions, where the “drawback” of it actually becomes a benefit. I’m guessing if you added up all the times I’ve maxbanded Vandy in this matchup, it’s probably

  • 30% of the time I benefit from it via targeting
  • 60% of the time it either buffs nothing or the buff doesn’t prove at all useful to Blue
  • 10% of the time it’s a “true” drawback

This is unique to the Black vs Blue matchup so I feel like it’s an easy way to nerf Vandy vs Blue

5 Likes

I agree with 1g Pestering Haunt, it makes sense. I think the only reason I didn’t put it on the list was because not enough people thought it needed changed during the discussion that led to that list being made. Never design by committee, kids!

As for Dark Pact, I think it’s good for the game if it’s something you use only some of the time and it has risk attached. Regardless of what that looks like, that’s the goal imo.

5 Likes

In terms of Black vs Blue specifically, I’d rather see Censorship Council become a viable answer to Dark Pact than see Pact nerfed too hard (right now, Council isn’t realistically playable in this matchup, but that could just be a symptom of the pressure imbalance).

In more general terms, I agree with Hobuku’s take. The issue with damage to base or Vandy as a deterrent to Pact spam is that the effectiveness is highly situational. If Black is reasonably confident they’ll take little to no building damage over the course of the game, it’s all but negligible. Similarly, 1 damage to Vandy at-will is probably not very significant until Vandy maxbands, and even then, healing can largely negate it. I don’t think some variability is inherently bad, especially if the opponent has options to influence it, but in this case, it seems like Black can be reasonably confident that the base damage isn’t going to matter (and in fact can be a perk, allowing Pact to be used to finish off the opponent’s base). If Blue were more threatening to Black, maybe it wouldn’t seem like such a risk-free proposition?

In terms of card value, I’d compare Pact to Martial Mastery. MM has the perk of granting hand vision, but even so, is that enough to justify $1 and a pre-draw discard over 2 base damage? Maybe, but I’m not so sure.

Regarding Vandy’s maxband, that’s a tough one. It would be an easier call if all it did was buff by +2/+2 for a turn, but the doom effect means that diverting it with a Flagbearer may be desirable, particularly because “weakest” doesn’t necessarily imply “least valuable”. For the moment, at least, I’m inclined to leave its behavior alone, but make it more expensive to access via a slower level curve.

5 Likes

There’s nothing inherently wrong with card advantage as long as it comes at a cost, opportunity or otherwise.
Dark Pact has no cost. The base damage means nothing, especially against blue who has very little reach for direct base damage.
I believe dark pact should cost 1, and keep the base damage. It’s not a big nerf, but it will impact black’s gold supply combined with increasing haunt to 1 gold.
Putting more pressure on what black can do with small amounts of gold is a big nerf already.

4 Likes

Sirlin was saying that Metamorphosis shouldn’t be so important to Black’s game plan, so a higher max level would also indirectly help with that issue.

2 Likes

Blue does have a variety of tools to bypass patrollers and damage a base (flying, unstoppable, invisible, disable, General’s Hammer), it’s just hard to field them effectively in the face of Black’s pressure.

5 Likes

You are right. I should state my points more clearly.

Right now, black is very, very gold efficient. I believe a number of minor changes that put more gold pressure on its strongest options will go a long way to reducing its hard early game pressure.

4 Likes

Okay, so putting all this together, are we looking at…

Dark Pact, Deteriorate, Pestering Haunt changed from $0 to $1
Metamorphosis gives 1 +1/+1 rune per hero instead of 2
Vandy adjusted to 1-3 (resist 1) / 4-5 (fetch) / 6 (unchanged)

… for the next set? Any objections?

3 Likes

I am totally game to give that a shot if you are. That feels like an “aggressively reserved” changelist that should have high impact in this matchup, while not totally messing up Black for other matchups where it is even / less heavily favored.

If after this, it still feels like Black is 7-3 or better, I think the next things to try are

  • adding level reqs to Vandy (maybe bumping maxband to 7 or 8?)
  • removing the targeting from Vandy’s maxband (I feel like it’s a good cleanliness / simplification change in general, could even be triggered on opponent’s turn, fits her flavor of risky tradeoffs w/ the Devil, makes Haunt worse to have around, and most importantly, helps this matchup while hurting other matchups minimally)
  • adding Vandy damage to Dark Pact

So shall I kick off another 6-game set?

3 Likes

Sure, I’m very curious to see how this goes.

Same. I know Deteriorate to 1g on its own didn’t change much, but this all together feels like it ought to be enough to get to 6-4-ish, so I’m hoping we end this set 4-2 or 3-3.

I will refer to this nerf list as “Tax the Rich Demons”

I have a feeling I’m going to be more heavily weighing Orpal options… GL HF! (and please keep me honest on costs, I’m sure I’m going to forget and fuck up my spending here and there)

Set 3, Game 1, Player 1, Turn 1

P1 Black w/ Demon Taxes vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Deteriorate
Summon Skeletons
Pestering Haunt
Jandra, the Negator
Sacrifice the Weak

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (4)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Main:

  • Vandy (2)
  • Pestering Haunt (1)
  • Worker (0)
Workers

Summon Skeletons

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 3 Draw 5
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Pestering Haunt (1/1)
  • Vandy (2/3 lvl 1)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 3

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 5

End of Turn Hand

Graveyard
Poisonblade Rogue
Skeletal Archery
Skeleton Javelineer
Thieving Imp

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

I’m planning to take this first game with a vague underlying notion that things have changed, but otherwise proceeding as I normally would with the goal of pushing the new changes to see how much they tamp down my bread and butter Black strats. It’s not as if I’m intentionally trying to lose, but I do want to stress test how much this pulls things back as it will be valuable knowledge over the next couple games. So 1g Haunt + Vandy still feels the strongest opening here and I am therefore going for that to start with.


3 Likes

Roger that, there’s a lot of card changes here, and I’ll try to be extra attentive. Now, let’s see if a Tower will dissuade your Haunt from taking pot shots at my buildings.

P2T1


StartingHand Workers

STARTING HAND
Lawful Search
Bluecoat Musketeer
Building Inspector
Jail
Spectral Aven


WORKERS
Bluecoat Musketeer


NextHand

Manufactured Truth
Traffic Director
Reputable Newsman
Arrest
Porkhand Magistrate


Discard

Lawful Search
Spectral Aven
Jail


Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Building Inspector - ($3)
Tower - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5


Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Building Inspector (1/1A) $1 tax
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 3

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 6

Thoughts

Now that Deteriorate is $1, I want to try using the Aven, but right now, I need to focus on defense. The Haunt is still oppressive even at $1, but at least a Tower should be effective at discouraging it from taking potshots at buildings. This isn’t a great starting hand, but the balanced changes make it less devestating. I normally wouldn’t consider SQL Building Inspector to be an option, but $1 Deteriorate means it’s an even trade, though I’d rather he soak a hit from Vandy… otherwise he might Deteriorate, midband Vandy, and break the Tower with the Haunt. There’s no safe play here, but this seems like the best option.

1 Like

It most certainly will, as I like keeping it on the board, out of my shuffles, and ready to strike at the opportune moment.

Set 3, Game 1, Player 1, Turn 2

P1 Black w/ Demon Taxes vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Graveyard
Poisonblade Rogue
Skeletal Archery
Skeleton Javelineer
Thieving Imp

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (5)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Dark Pact, Bone Collector


Main:

  • Thieving Imp, discard #2 of 5 (2)
  • Vandy kills SQL, takes 2
  • Worker (1)
  • Tech 1 (0)
Workers

Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 3 rs Draw 5
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Pestering Haunt (1/1)
  • Vandy (2/1 lvl 1)
  • Thieving Imp (2/2)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 3
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 6

End of Turn Hand

Bone Collector
Sacrifice the Weak
Poisonblade Rogue
Jandra, the Negator
Deteriorate

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Definitely going to feel gold pinch here, but DP + BC + Graveyard still feels like a great way to go here


By the way, I’m curious why we haven’t been talking about buffing blue. A couple of buffs for the starter deck could help alleviate this, or maybe law’s lacklustre tech 1s.
Just something to think about.
I’m curious how these changes go though!

I don’t feel like Blue needs a ton of buffs, and I also feel like Blue’s balance is really on a knife’s edge. The anecdotal vibe I’ve gotten from beta testers is that Blue bounced back and fourth between way OP and way UP with small changes and that resonates with me and my observations on the current state of Blue and how it performs in most matchups.

The best proposals I feel like I’ve heard for Blue is making LS a “one-time-use upgrade”, and I’d be interested to see how that plays.

But since Black is strong in virtually all other matchups anyway, and we have grown consensus over time for why Black is so strong and how to make it less strong in a fair way, that’s what I’m most interested in testing out.

If a consensus develops around which things in Blue should be buffed, I’m game to try them. For now, though, the only things that seem to have been largely agreed to are

  • GatG needs a buff. I’d be game to give that “Always has exactly 1 attack, regardless of debuffs” or 2 attack something, but again, no clear “this is the thing that should buff him”, and
  • Arresting Constable needs a buff. But same thing as GatG, what buff? Haste maybe? better stats / lower cost? Replace ability cost with “1g, once per turn”? All those have been proposed, none seems to have consensus as the change to make

There’s also a ton of chatter about Garrison needing a nerf. That one I happen to disagree with; I think Peace engine is mostly okay. But that seems to have a lot of thunder.

4 Likes