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An odd rules issue

#1

Hello. I am quite new to Yomi. I heard about it after having played Codex, and recently picked up Round 1 and the Steam version as well. I have played a little face-to-face, but none on the computer yet.

While looking through the FAQ I found a question & answer that has caused me a fair bit of consternation, to wit: Bubble Shield is odd for the purposes of mixup normals. This is bothering me for a couple of reasons.

  1. It is not consistent. “Normal” is explicitly defined in the rules as being the set of cards numbered 2-10. Throughout the game normals, specials (faces), and supers (aces) are distinct categories (e.g. rules affecting face cards do not affect aces). The only mention made of special and super moves in the Mixup Normals section is to state that the rule does not apply to them (admittedly, only special/super attacks vs normal blocks are explicitly mentioned). If we take as given that Bubble Shield is odd, then why is it the only ace in the game which is odd for the purpose of mixup normals? If aces are odd, it should be impossible for knocked-down characters to block super attacks with even blocks.

  2. It is secret. There is nothing in the rules or on any card that would lead one to the conclusion that aces are odd, nevermind that one and only one ace in the game is considered odd. The only mention I can find of an odd ace is in Lum’s blackjack (where aces count as 1 or 11), but this is a blackjack rule that has no bearing on anything outside of this ability. Literally the only way to find out about the odd Bubble Shield is to happen upon the FAQ, or speak to someone who has.

This might be bothering me a little more than it otherwise might because Yomi is not an inconsistent or arbitrary game. The rules seem to have been carefully crafted and balanced, and exceptions are well documented and explained.

I would welcome any feedback on this issue.

#2

At the end of the day, that’s just the way it is. His ace being able to block cross-ups on KD would be pretty vicious…

#3

Respectfully, “that’s just the way it is” isn’t much of an explanation for the existence of a secret rule that’s completely inconsistent with the published rules.

As far as the balance issue you bring up goes, you are better qualified than I am to weigh in. Do you feel that Argagarg would be overpowered if Bubble Shield were not susceptible to mixup normals?

Incidentally, I appreciate the material you’ve posted on YouTube. I’ve gone through quite a bit of it, and it has helped me to familiarize myself with the game, besides being entertaining.

#4

I was curious, and went to the rulebook hosted online. I quote: “can’t block your odd numbered normal attacks with an even numbered block, and vice versa.” Notably, the attacks are specified as normal, but the blocks are not. So, the parity matters for any block, not just normal blocks. However, Arg’s A is the only non-normal block, so it looks like an exception.

#5

I think it’s there to keep an interesting interaction while Arg is knocked down. Not that it would be overpowered if it always beat mix ups, but the dynamic it creates was worth the ruling. It might have been better placed on the card itself (Just a line that says This card counts as an odd-ranked block while you are knocked down), but the ability text is already pretty lengthy, especially in v1. It’s hard to say if it’s inconsistent since it is the only block on a non-normal, but I agree that distinguishing normals, specials, and supers makes it misleading. But I do think the game is in a better place with the ruling it has.

#6

That’s a fair point (and the online rulebook is no different than my printed copy), but even if I were to infer from that statement that Bubble Shield was to be included, I would still have no way of knowing whether to consider it odd or even.

#7

That dynamic being (and please correct me if I’m wrong, new & inexperienced player and all) that Bubble Shield is strictly better than a normal block, therefore Argagarg would have incentive to choose it. The other player, knowing this, would therefore naturally pick the even attack. But then of course Argagarg, in turn knowing this, might pick an even block, and so on ad infinitum. A mixup within a mixup, so to speak.

Even in the alternate case (of the ace being neither odd nor even) there is a dynamic beyond the typical mixup normal. Aces often have, to borrow mysticjuicer’s term, vicious effects. It seems to me that the opponent’s possession of aces (whether it’s confirmed through powering up, or just the perception of likelihood, e.g. late game and none have been seen) ought to have a significant impact as I evaluate my choices. I recently watched a video where Leontes controlled the latter portion of the game simply with the imminent threat of Final Dragon Buster, without actually ever playing it. My perception of Argagarg holding aces ought to affect how I approached a mixup normal against him in a similar fashion.

I’m not saying that one is better or worse than the other, and I doubt I’m qualified to make that determination at this point. But I don’t think that it’s a case of wine vs dishwater.

I entirely agree that it would have been better had the “odd rule” been explicitly stated on the card. As an aside, I wonder how many tabletop-only players even know of this rule…

#8

I was sure this rule was explicitly stated in the rulebook, so I checked both my v1 and v2 physical copies, the old website, and the steam version.

Having checked them, I fully understand your point.

The rule is laid out explicitly in the v1 FAQ section of the rulebook.

  1. If I was knocked down last turn, can Bubble Shield block any attack, even “mixup normals”?
    A: No. The combat after you’re knocked down, you can’t block an odd numbered normal attack with an even numbered block, and vice versa. Bubble Shield is considered odd, so it can’t block an even numbered normal attack after a knockdown.

That text is also on the old website, here: http://game.fantasystrike.com/guide/index.php/Yomi

The v2 rulebook does not have an FAQ section. Instead, at the end of the rulebook it says, under the heading “Frequently Asked Questions”, “Want even more detail on how a character’s abilities work? Visit www.sirlin.net/yomi/faq for more info.”
As you can see by following that link, it redirects you very slightly to another page, which links you to another website… a broken link. Because it leads to the old website which does sitll exist, but under a different path. The actual place it’s trying to link you to is here:
http://game.fantasystrike.com/forums/index.php?threads/yomi-shadows-gameplay-faq.8020/

I’m pretty sure that thread is also linked in Mysticjuicer’s collection of useful stuff, but I can understand not having trawled that thoroughly. It’s a lot of information.

As for the yomi steam client, there are absolutely no FAQs, and no explanation of Bubble Shield being an odd block.

In conclusion: You’re absolutely right. Sirlin pls fix

#9

Correct. Though, playing Bubble Shield isn’t strictly better since there is an opportunity cost involved. Losing your Ace can turn off your AA (Blowfish Spikes), or just leave you without Bubble Shield, which is dangerous.
In the alternate case, there is a dynamic beyond a typical KD mixup, but it’s basically just neutral.

There’s a similar inconsistency with Rook’s special blocks (3, 5) and Gwen’s special block (10). Rook’s don’t return to hand, and Gwen’s follows all the typical block rulings. This is because Rook’s special blocks are supposed to be dodge substitutes, since he has no dodges, so they more closely mimic playing one. The only way to know the difference (as far as I know) is noticing that Rook’s blocks don’t have the helper text that reminds players what blocks do.

I just think of them as card errata. As you mentioned, the only way to know would be to ask someone or check the specific section of the rulebook that addresses it. There for sure does need to be a section of the rulebook that addresses it, though.

#10

I understand your frustration, as things like this really bothered me, especially when I was learning the game new. I don’t have a problem with it being considered an odd. It would only be inconsistent if other Aces were considered as Evens. As it is, it’s just a special case (I think the only other non-normal Block is Quince in the Power Up version? And it has the text stating that it’s an odd.). It was indeed an oversight to omit the helpful card text stating that it’s an odd for Mixup normals though.

You really don’t want to learn about the inconsistency with Rook and his special Blocks with regards to Counter abilities. That may very well frustrate you. :wink:
edit: TokH beat me to it. :slight_smile:

#11

Oh totally! I don’t think there’s any excuse for failing to put that reminder text on the card itself. I was just answering your question of “why is Arg’s Bubble Shield considered odd, when face cards and aces are neither odd or even when they are attacks.” It’s just the way it is, for balance purposes.

He’d certainly be a lot better than he currently is. And fighting him would be even less interesting than it currently is.

Oh sweet! Thanks! :smiley:

#12

Apologies for the delayed response, I have been working approximately 80 hours per week which leaves little time for anything else. I wanted to thank everyone for the detailed and helpful responses.

#13

The rule also makes pressuring a knocked down Arg a bit safer. It’s part of why I find playing Arg to be stressful. I become really paranoid about knockdown. The characters I usually play have reversals, so I don’t mind getting knocked down.